『Mafia Game 8: Your maddest School Life ever starts from here...』

[FinalPyre]

『That point doesn't really mean anything. Involuntary or voluntary, accidental or incidental, suicidal or homicidal, none of these matter, the murder is still a murder.』

Interesting logic. By that, it should be easily apparent that if the murder was due to someone hitting the button, unaware that someone else was in the tunnel, then the person we should find guilty in this trial is the engineer who failed to implement proper safety measures. Or you could keep going and it would be his supervisor, and of course the owner of the school. :P

Oh the blame game.

 

[Ghost Kitty~]

Monoowl, would you care to explain what constitutes as a suicide in this game?

 

[MadSova]

[hl-red]『Isn't that simple? If you want to kill yourself and succeed in doing so that counts as suicide.』[/hl-red]

『Maybe highlight would be more noticeable and better~』

『Pyre, the trains are made with that in mind. These trains are intentionally and specifically made to kill people like that. But, the one who is at fault isn't a person who made a gun or even a person who made materials who were used the gun or person who found the materials for those materials. It is always the foolish person who used that gun to kill someone.』

 

[Ghost Kitty~]

So dying to save someone else doesnt count as choosing to die and isnt suicide? It could vaguely be argued either way...

 

[MadSova]

[hl-red]『Certainly it is that the person chooses to die in that case, but can you really say that the decision was their own and they really wanted to die?』[/hl-red]

 

[Sintarow]

So dying to save someone else doesnt count as choosing to die and isnt suicide? It could vaguely be argued either way...

Think of it this way, if someone shoots a gun at you, and I push you away taking the killing shot, are you responsible for my death?
Or is the person that pulled the trigger at fault? (Accident or not)

 

[Ghost Kitty~]

Well... was just hoping for another ending... Except its more like shooting into air and something just happened to be there since they werent really aiming for anything in particular...

 

[FinalPyre]

『Pyre, the trains are made with that in mind. These trains are intentionally and specifically made to kill people like that. But, the one who is at fault isn't a person who made a gun or even a person who made materials who were used the gun or person who found the materials for those materials. It is always the foolish person who used that gun to kill someone.』

I think it is better for you just to state that making sense doesn't work here.

Your example doesn't work. A gun is a tool designed specifically to kill things. It doesn't really have another purpose. You have a button that calls a train, that it's purpose is to ferry people to and from school. The gun in your example and your train button are nothing alike, and you can't really create a correlation between, say, randomly pushing a button that calls a train for you to travel in, or going out in your back yard and randomly aiming and firing a shotgun. The utility of a gun is to kill, the utility of a train is travel (regardless of whether you have spikes in front... which really shouldn't make a difference with a moving train anyways).

You can't call someone foolish for pushing a button that calls their ride, and not anticipating that they would need to systematically check the entire train system by themselves before they can verify that it is a safe course of action. You can, however, call the person foolish who randomly fires birdshot in their back yard.

 

[Satori]

First we were discussing about the case and now we're having a debate on what is considered a murder or suicide?

 

[Sintarow]

I think it is better for you just to state that making sense doesn't work here.

Your example doesn't work. A gun is a tool designed specifically to kill things. It doesn't really have another purpose. You have a button that calls a train, that it's purpose is to ferry people to and from school. The gun in your example and your train button are nothing alike, and you can't really create a correlation between, say, randomly pushing a button that calls a train for you to travel in, or going out in your back yard and randomly aiming and firing a shotgun. The utility of a gun is to kill, the utility of a train is travel (regardless of whether you have spikes in front... which really shouldn't make a difference with a moving train anyways).

You can't call someone foolish for pushing a button that calls their ride, and not anticipating that they would need to systematically check the entire train system by themselves before they can verify that it is a safe course of action. You can, however, call the person foolish who randomly fires birdshot in their back yard.

My example works perfectly for the mindset of this game.
Without knowing the button is like the trigger of the gun.

 

[Sintarow]

First we were discussing about the case and now we're having a debate on what is considered a murder or suicide?

Well if it is suicide the killer would be M1.

 

[MadSova]

『In this school everything exists to be used a weapon to kill. Whether you know it is or not, think it is or not.』

 

[M1ha1ru]

- deleted -

 

[MadSova]

『Post #2014 !!!! (yep, just spam ^_^)』

『Ah well, off to exam, laters people~』

 

[Ghost Kitty~]

Hmm... well if we can figure out what counts as a killing and what counts as suicide then we would be able to determine the culprit... If this counts as suicide then Mikhail would be the culprit and if not then... otherwise...

 

[aexiel]

I think it is better for you just to state that making sense doesn't work here.

Your example doesn't work. A gun is a tool designed specifically to kill things. It doesn't really have another purpose. You have a button that calls a train, that it's purpose is to ferry people to and from school. The gun in your example and your train button are nothing alike, and you can't really create a correlation between, say, randomly pushing a button that calls a train for you to travel in, or going out in your back yard and randomly aiming and firing a shotgun. The utility of a gun is to kill, the utility of a train is travel (regardless of whether you have spikes in front... which really shouldn't make a difference with a moving train anyways).

You can't call someone foolish for pushing a button that calls their ride, and not anticipating that they would need to systematically check the entire train system by themselves before they can verify that it is a safe course of action. You can, however, call the person foolish who randomly fires birdshot in their back yard.

I would like to point out that the gun was originally implemented as an advanced form and probably most accurate and efficient of projectile weapons, and like all projectile weapons, they were originally intended to be used for hunting, not necessarily killing, but more of incapacitating. Your logic can lead to the assessment that a fork was made for killing simply because it was modelled after a weapon.

Also, any death caused by an individual without the intention to kill is technically _______-cide (parricide, homicide, pesticide, etc.). Since the death was labelled as murder we MUST assume that someone had the intent.

Also, please surrender all your shoes to me. I am not done inspecting them.

Oh and by the way, have we established why Chiru was in the middle of the tracks?

Let us suppose the murderer pressed the button, that still leaves the blood trail. Another peculiar thing is that if Mikhail was indeed killed by the train, the following ideas contradict such an assumption:
1. With the school's train system, it would not have stopped when it hit him and would have either run him over or tossed him further away.
2. The corpse itself is peculiar, assuming that the train killed him, his body should have been more mangled as the train would have dragged him around the entire track.
3. If he was hit in front of the platform, Mikhail wouldn't be impaled as such as the train would be slowing down.
4. The blood trail itself makes no sense. Why would someone drag the body off the track, on to the platform, and back to the track but further in?

Do correct me if I made a mistake in my assumptions.

 

[DreamCa7ch3r]

I don't wanna take orders from a mustache :/

 

[Satori]

And saying that Azuriel started going around the people and looking at everyone's shoes. The only shoes that have been stained with blood were: Fear's, Ariya's, Bear's, Satori's and Sin's.

I think you've looked at everyone's shoes already.

 

[FinalPyre]

My example works perfectly for the mindset of this game.
Without knowing the button is like the trigger of the gun.

Your example works if we all agree that making sense doesn't work here. Otherwise it is the same as my example. I can even flesh this out further for fun if you want.

Spoiler: More examples

Consider Chaos Theory, and its popular butterfly effect. If a butterfly flapping its wings was the final catalyst for the storm, is it rational to blame the butterfly? No. Even if we assume exceedingly intelligent butterflies, it has no way of knowing that its specific flight pattern could cause a storm.

Consider there is a scientist that develops a particularly dangerous new type of weapon. Despite taking all the normal security precautions and a few extra just to be safe, a very skilled thief breaks in, steals the weapon, and uses it to kill a great multitude of people. Who gets the murder charges, the scientist or the thief? Obviously the thief. The thief set out with intention to kill people, while the scientist was doing his due part to try to keep people away from his dangerous creation.

Now an example to suit our situation. Consider a pilot trying to land a plane. Everything seems normal, and he doesn't get any warning signals or anything. Yet when he lands on the runway, the plane hits the ground and get severely damaged, killing many of the passengers, but the pilot escapes. It would appear that though no alarms went off, the landing gear didn't deploy properly. Further investigation shows that an engineer intentionally disabled the landing gear in such a way that the alarms wouldn't go off. Who gets the jail time? The pilot who didn't successfully land the plane, or the engineer who sabotaged the plane? Once again, it should be obvious that it is the engineer.

The pilot is our button-presser, the plane is a train, the landing gear is safety protocols to make sure it doesn't hit anyone, and the engineer is monoowl.

Further, your example only works if the gun the person was holding looks suspiciously like a kazoo, rather than a gun. The person has used it before and it functioned like you would expect a kazoo to function. This one time, in addition to functioning like a kazoo, it also functioned like a gun. Now it is a rough parallel to our train problem. Do we blame the person who thought they were playing the kazoo, or the person who added the gun functionality to the kazoo, unbeknownst to the kazoo player? As always, the answer is obvious.

[MENTION=36528]aexiel[/MENTION]; War creates most advancements. I think people knew exactly what they were creating when they made guns. And even if you suggest that the first use was hunting, one does not hunt with a gun to subdue, but to kill and eat an animal. Tranquilizers weren't until later.
A fork was made specifically for the task of eating (not murdering, other than maybe in "3:10 to Yuma" :D). I don't know my fork history, but I would assume that if anything, it was modeled after a pitchfork, which was itself created for farming and not for being a weapon.

And your guesses so far are the same as mine. The first guess I have is that they realized that the button pressing was probably an issue, and were indecisive about hiding their tracks. Either that or there was killing intent after all, and thus we have a murder.

 

[Ghost Kitty~]

Hmm... doesnt particularly seem like there was intent here...

Thought someone else was looking at shoes O.o

Chiru was in the tunnel walking with Mikhail although were not sure what happened because she really hasn't been talking much.

Sova really should explain the train's workings more... 4th time explaining... maybe 5th... ahh too lazy to explain fully... The train moves once per phase then stops at the station for an hour before disappearing off into a forbidden area until next phase. Not all laws of physics apply here either ;p There was spikes in front of the train which would sort of catch Mikhail and keep him there? He was likely hit 30 steps into the tunnel if the pool of blood there is any indication. We believe that someone took his body off the spikes and dragged it onto the platform then tossed it back on the tracks after. Then went to try wiping away the blood. Everything here is made of "madness" so the train just doesnt slow no matter what it hits.

 

[FinalPyre]

@sam which is more evidence for "we can't move forward until we accept that sense-making doesn't work here". :P

 

[Rucking Fetard]

Was the train controlled by someone?
It wasn't unmanned the entire time then?

 

[Satori]

The train does seem unstoppable but I could recall one time during the investigation when Sumire returned from the school and the train suddenly stopped when it hit Mikhail's corpse again for some odd reason.

Also. I'm really confused about the blood trail as well and I have no idea how it was made.

 

[pichu655889]

At the moment I'm having a little trouble following the discussion, what with guns, forks, planes, trains and shoes. Any question I might have has already been asked here so I'll just continue watching the thread.

Soon, I feel, I am going to have to take out some paper and start mapping things out so they don't become too confusing.

 

[Rucking Fetard]

They're serious pichu, just ask them when you forget and they should be able to answer you in excruciating detail w