This forum is currently not very friendly towards translators, so I am requesting clarification that the current state of affairs is as intended.
I found this old post by admin 'corocoro' directly answering where to post translation related materials, but I am not sure if it is still valid or not since this forum now has a 'dedicated' section for 'Translations Projects'.
It is not clear that the 'Translations Projects' section existed when the admin issued their guidance hence asking for clarifications that their guidance still applies 7 years later.
Taking what the admin said at face value, that means translations are not allowed to be posted in the "Translations Projects" section. Is that correct? Or are translations allowed to be posted in the "Translations Projects" section? Does it depend on whether it includes the main game or not?
Reading the description for the 'Translations Projects' section and the other sections, it seems to imply that only 'translation projects' are allowed there, not translation requests or finished translations.
- Are game, manga, vn, ln, translation requests allowed in the 'Translations Projects' section? Which of those categories are allowed? Which are not?
- Are finished translations, without the game, allowed in the 'Translations Projects' section?
- Are finished translations, with the game pre-bundled and distributed together, allowed in the 'Translations Projects' section?
- Are finished translations, with the game not-bundled but provided as a seperate link, allowed in the 'Translations Projects' section?
Example: A user provides a link to a translation and the game as two different links.
There are a lot of translation related threads, including projects, that are not in the 'Translations Projects' section.
Random example: https://www.anime-sharing.com/threads/sonicomi-motto-sonicomi-translation-project.235726/
- Are these threads not in the 'Translations Projects' section miscategoried or is dual/multiple-categorization allowed without any bias for which section they are in? 'Should' they be in the 'Translations Projects' section?
- If the thread owner requests they be moved to the 'Translations Projects' section, will they be moved?
- If I, not the read owner, flag them and request they be moved to the 'Translations Projects' section for organizational purposes, will they be moved?
- If I obtain permission from the thread owner to request to flag their thread to get it moved to the 'Translations Projects' section, will it be moved?
- If I am not able to obtain permission from the tread owner to move their thread because the thread owner is no longer active on this forum in the last 30 days, and I flag a thread to move it to the 'Translations Projects' section, will it be moved?
I keep putting 'Translations Projects' in quotes because it is incorrect grammar in English to put two plurals next to each other like that. 'Translations' and 'Translation Projects' are both correct, but 'Translations Projects' is not. Is that grammar error intentional? What is it meant to imply? If it is not intentional, can it be renamed easily to a grammatically correct form?
So your suggestion is not necessarily that you want us to fix/block the thread, but just move it to Discussions instead with a note that they can be moved back if they make the thread pretty?
That works for me.
I just really don't want to annoy someone trying to contribute. I could actually imagine someone not sharing a translation (Especially if it's "just" a MTL), just because they don't want to deal with trying to get the formatting right.
Instead of moving it, just PM me and I'll fix it, especially if it is an edited MTL or better. I like keeping things tidy. If a user posts a thread missing information, then I will go ahead and add anything missing that is crucial, excluding screenshots.
Or is the user who posted a helpful and relevant link that directly relates to the content being discussed in violation of the no-thread-hijacking rule? Does the no-thread-hijacking rule also apply to mirrors of the patch in the OP if the OP does not mind?
The no-thread-hijacking rule is only activated when the thread owner raises the issue, and we assess each situation on a case-by-case basis. Here are a few examples:
If the thread owner posts only the patch (not the game with the patch) and someone else posts the game with the patch applied, the thread owner might claim it's a hijack. However, it may not be, since the thread owner only posted the patch. Mod discretion applies here.
It's completely fine if someone posts a link to another thread within ASF in the thread owner's thread.
If the thread owner posts a patch and the links are still active, but someone else posts mirrors, and the thread owner claims it's a hijack—unless the original links are broken, it's generally not acceptable to post competing links if the thread owner objects. A different set of links might be allowed. Again, mod discretion applies.
If the thread owner's links have expired, indicating the owner has gone MIA, the thread is considered abandoned, and anything goes. Alternatively, the poster can opt to create a new thread (as in point 1), which is perfectly fine.
If the thread owner does not mind additional replies, then anything goes, and we turn a blind eye.
That thread is a translation project, so it is correctly categorized as is. If it does not get updated by the affected thread owners in 30 days, then I can update it and the other old threads in that section.
So your suggestion is not necessarily that you want us to fix/block the thread, but just move it to Discussions instead with a note that they can be moved back if they make the thread pretty?
That works for me.
Yeah, or if someone is nice enough to re-release and beautify it. Any member can do that, and it's perfectly fine on Anime-Sharing. Sharing and reposting other works (with credits) is allowed.
Unless you would like to have one representative thread for each game, and everyone else posting under it? That is fine too, but a mod will have to beautify the main post for bare minimum info.
I just really don't want to annoy someone trying to contribute. I could actually imagine someone not sharing a translation (Especially if it's "just" a MTL), just because they don't want to deal with trying to get the formatting right.
At least I've noticed stuff like that on F95 with translations made with my translator.
People make tons of SLRMTLs, but never bother to post any of them.
For those situations, you could safely compile them into a mega thread in the Discussions section—think of a suitable title for it. We're not being restrictive here.
As for the old thread I made 12 years ago, you can just leave it. It will eventually fade to the bottom, but it serves as a nice reminder of the origins. I believe it was the first game publicly released. The rest were shrouded in mystery and released by other groups.
Instead of moving it, just PM me and I'll fix it, especially if it is an edited MTL or better. I like keeping things tidy. If a user posts a thread missing information, then I will go ahead and add anything missing that is crucial, excluding screenshots.
I just want to note that doing that could become time-consuming, which might be challenging for you in the future when life gets busier.
I'm not trying to stop you; I'm just suggesting that those posts be collected into a mega thread, allowing someone else to eventually post it as a release. We have many uploaders here eager for content.
Just a suggestion from my limited experience, but since you're both mods of the section, you can decide. A lot of mod discretion applies here. Remember, our goal is to share and help, not to hinder.
Shisaye said the same thing. I must be crazy or something. Not that I mind of course. Life might get very busy for a while though, so regardless of my intentions, I do understand that is the overriding factor.
For support, the site says to go on this forum. Hypothetically, if I tried to create an account and never received a verification email after 12 hrs, even after hitting resend and entering the email and name multiple times, should I create a support thread about it? It also mentions IRC. Is that the preferred method to sort these things out?
I know this was technically addressed before, but I'm still confused about "collection" threads.
Let's say I would want to make a thread in which I collect incomplete translation patches, that I would only consider for its own project thread once I've actually revisited them and added stuff like translations of picture based text. (Also to reduce the amount of work required to mirror all my stuff over here.)
Then I would have to post that in the "Translation Projects & Releases" section, because the "Translation Discussions" section does not have the increased attachment size, but obviously such a thread would not follow the formatting standards of the single translation releases.
Is that a problem?
Edit:
Another unrelated question while I'm at it.
Let's say I would want to post a NSFW guide/walkthrough for a game, what section would actually be the correct one? The "Adult Corner" in the "Pure and Innocent Room", or the "Game Talk" in the "Social Section"?
For support, the site says to go on this forum. Hypothetically, if I tried to create an account and never received a verification email after 12 hrs, even after hitting resend and entering the email and name multiple times, should I create a support thread about it? It also mentions IRC. Is that the preferred method to sort these things out?
Regarding account verification issues, it doesn't have to be formal. You can mention it here or PM me your username, and I'll take a look. You can also attach pictures directly on ASF. I've planned for ASF to have many terabytes of storage as the budget allows, and we're not close to reaching that limit. There's currently a limit of 10 attachments per thread.
iwtf was an interim solution for ASF v1, which couldn't handle more than around 100GB of attachments. In ASF v2, we can manage several terabytes. I'm looking forward to ASF v2.x, which will handle even more. I have some plans, unrelated to translation, for future improvements.
For reference, the image board Yande.re uses 10TB of storage, and I've planned for up to 80TB in its future expansion.
Then I would have to post that in the "Translation Projects & Releases" section, because the "Translation Discussions" section does not have the increased attachment size, but obviously such a thread would not follow the formatting standards of the single translation releases.
If the "Translation Discussions" section doesn't meet your needs due to attachment limits, I can adjust that across all forums if needed. Would you prefer the same increased attachment limits applied to all Translation forums or just specific ones?
Let's say I would want to post a NSFW guide/walkthrough for a game, what section would actually be the correct one? The "Adult Corner" in the "Pure and Innocent Room", or the "Game Talk" in the "Social Section"?
Regarding posting an NSFW guide/walkthrough, the Eroge Corner forum would be suitable. It was originally designed for discussions around all eroge games, primarily Japanese ones, rather than specifically translated games. If it's a translated game, either the "Translation Discussions" or the "Eroge Corner" would work, whichever you think will get more views.
We don't typically strictly moderate the forum but instead, we provide guidelines to ensure people receive help if they post in the correct forum. Our focus is more on support than enforcement.
If the "Translation Discussions" section doesn't meet your needs due to attachment limits, I can adjust that across all forums if needed. Would you prefer the same increased attachment limits applied to all Translation forums or just specific ones?
Yes, that would simplify it quite a bit.
Then "Translation Projects & Releases" could be used strictly for properly formatted translation releases and "Translation Discussions" could be used for everything else.
Regarding posting an NSFW guide/walkthrough, the Eroge Corner forum would be suitable. It was originally designed for discussions around all eroge games, primarily Japanese ones, rather than specifically translated games. If it's a translated game, either the "Translation Discussions" or the "Eroge Corner" would work, whichever you think will get more views.
Basically to be more specific, there's a game I'm quite fond of called Mad Island, but because of it's DLC introducing young people, its thread is constantly under fire and could potentially get deleted on F95.
Because there's some pretty good information in that thread, including a complete guide to everything in the game, I was wondering if I should tell the one maintaining it to mirror it here so the information is preserved and one doesn't constantly have to tip toe around the existence of young looking 2D cartoon characters.
But I wouldn't even have known what exactly to tell him, because I have to admit the overall structure of this forum is very confusing to me. It's a bit all over the place.
Because there's some pretty good information in that thread, including a complete guide to everything in the game, I was wondering if I should tell the one maintaining it to mirror it here so the information is preserved and one doesn't constantly have to tip toe around the existence of young looking 2D cartoon characters.
But I wouldn't even have known what exactly to tell him, because I have to admit the overall structure of this forum is very confusing to me. It's a bit all over the place.
For the game "Mad Island," given its translated status, it's suitable for both forums. You're likely in the best position to make this decision. As a moderator in the Translation forum, it might be more convenient for you to create a thread under Discussions.
Regarding 2D loli content on ASF, all commercial releases are allowed. We've permitted content that is more controversial than this before. I can't even remember an instance of any 3D game being refused here either :D but generative AI is very new. Time to embrace the new reality.
Because there's some pretty good information in that thread, including a complete guide to everything in the game, I was wondering if I should tell the one maintaining it to mirror it here so the information is preserved
Would this be a good candidate for the Hgames Wiki? If there is a lot of confusing information out there and different versions like untranslated, translated, patches, and DLC versions, along with detailed gameplay guides and information, then that strikes me as a good candidate for the wiki format so information can be split into multiple pages while still being clear and related.
Then "Translation Projects & Releases" could be used strictly for properly formatted translation releases and "Translation Discussions" could be used for everything else.
If a release does not meet the release guidelines, pm or tag me and I will fix it. As long as new users eventually follow the essentials releases in that section, there is no need to move threads around or split releases into multiple forums. Releases should be in the releases forum.
As long as new users are told which information is missing, then they can fix it in their subsequent releases or otherwise post compilation threads in the releases section where they can have greater control over the formatting. Sometimes not all information is available for a release due to various reasons outside the posters control, threads missing some non-vital information should be allowed in compilation threads at least. We could even maintain a sticky megathread thread for incomplete releases that need to be split off into their own releases later but are currently missing information to encourage members to post whatever information they have while also not degrading the quality or expectations of the releases forum.
My impression is that Checkmate is allowing us to be as flexible as needed to create a thriving translation category. Provided we follow basic guidelines and common sense, it is up to us to figure out what sorts of policies would be appealing to users that have both flexibility to encourage users to post content the way they want and sufficient structure to allow other users to find the content. I am sure I will be corrected if I am mistaken.
My account is named "Entai" using the same email as I used to sign up for the forum. I can pm you the email name if you request it. Thank you for looking into it.
Would this be a good candidate for the Hgames Wiki? If there is a lot of confusing information out there and different versions like untranslated, translated, patches, and DLC versions, along with detailed gameplay guides and information, then that strikes me as a good candidate for the wiki format so information can be split into multiple pages while still being clear and related.
The HGames Wiki was originally created for the Illusion HF Modding Club, a well respected group when HongFire forum was still around. I've been considering developing a new, improved wiki system that would integrate with the forum for easier management. Additionally, the upcoming ASF v2.1 will feature an OAuth authentication system, which is essential for a "Login with Anime-Sharing" unified account feature.
Therefore, while it might be possible to utilize the wiki, it's not advisable until the new wiki system is developed, as the current MediaWiki software is quite difficult to maintain.
My impression is that Checkmate is allowing us to be as flexible as needed to create a thriving translation category. Provided we follow basic guidelines and common sense, it is up to us to figure out what sorts of policies would be appealing to users that have both flexibility to encourage users to post content the way they want and sufficient structure to allow other users to find the content. I am sure I will be corrected if I am mistaken.
That's correct, and I want you both to make some decisions for the future of this section as well. I can't cover every scenario, but this should be enough to get us off the ground.
My account is named "Entai" using the same email as I used to sign up for the forum. I can pm you the email name if you request it. Thank you for looking into it.
I feel like Entai is overthinking this. We should actually get something going first instead of pre-planning absolutely everything, and just see how if at all people actually want to interact with it.
I would keep relatively strict rules for the "Translation Projects & Releases" so we have a place that looks pretty/professional to hopefully attract serious translators, while keeping the rest relatively wild west, and just see what people want to do with it.
I mean it has to fit the rest of the site, and if necessary we can still move threads around later.
Thank you. Would you prefer images be hosted there or on the forum as attachments?
Unrelated: I have been discussing the relative importance of rules and categorization with Shisaye with respect to the Translation Projects & Releases forum and the Translation Discussions forum. We are at the point where we need your input Checkmate since I am thinking of making some rule changes.
Above all, the idea for those three forums is to create a welcoming place for people to post and discuss translations and related materials such as tools and guides. If they can't do that, then the three forums have failed in their intended purpose.
For the "Translation Projects and Releases" forum in particular, there are different approaches for making that forum a welcoming place but with sufficient structure that is still in compliance with the requirements that were stated earlier concerning content and thread titles for Releases. Right now it is not a sufficiently welcoming place because there are people who have different approaches to releasing their translations and some of those approaches are not compatible with the current ruleset for normal releases in that forum.
Here are some ideas I have come up with to try to combine the contradictory goals of rules compliance with user flexibility:
A strict moderation queue where missing information gets filled in before content gets displayed.
Separate 'waiting' forums where releases get posted and then moved to the Releases forum once they are approved by a moderator.
Splitting the translation section further into two forums, one that has content that meets the stated requirements and another that is 'wild west'/chaos style where anything goes.
A single stickied "Mini-Releases" thread that is 'wild west'/chaos style in the Releases forum for which to contain unformatted releases and allow other people, not just moderators, to create Normal Releases from any posted contents.
Special rules for compilation threads where users can decide how they post the content provided they meet some basic requirements that are lower than the requirements for Normal Releases. This would limit the spread of incorrectly formatted Releases and allow people who just can't follow formatting advice no matter what to still have their own threads.
How important is following the previous rules to the letter for that section? Are we free to do the "Mini-Releases" approach for users who do not want to make full threads with strict formatting guidelines? Are we free to have special rules for compilation threads?
Or would you prefer a strict and moderated Releases forum and a separate forum to post releases that do not meet those requirements? This idea was floated earlier. If the strictly moderated Releases forum approach is required, then that forum needs to be split into two in some way in order to fully contain both types of releases.
It was also discussed earlier that the existing "Translation Discussions" forum could be used for that purpose. I am not okay with miscategorizing content in this way at all. Posting content that is intended to be a release in the "Translation Discussions" forum is not a valid approach for splitting content because it mixes two categories. Correct categorization is very important to me and this approach would directly violate the splitting of these two categories of content.
I would rather have occasional releases that are not up to par but categorized appropriately than incorrectly categorized releases in the Discussion forum. Just because a release was not able to meet the high requirements of the Releases section does not mean the intent of the thread owner was to start a discussion and moving it there would also violate a user's intent. If having releases that are "not up to par" is not acceptable, then there are various remediation techniques that can be taken to correct errors. The above list should provide a few strategies still in the brainstorming stage.
My position is that correct categorization is more important than having a forum with rigid specific requirements. If the requirements were 100% strict, then my post in the Releases forum that has a template for releases would be a violation of that forum's rules because it is a thread that is not a release in the release section. I asked about this before, and this was not considered a problem. In other words, the rules for that forum are not 100% strict. Rather my current interpretation is that the rules are meant to apply to most threads in that section without being overly burdensome on people posting content, the existing content, and the moderators.
Here is my current best approach for creating a more welcoming system for different users in the current "Translations Projects & Releases" forum:
Mini-Releases are single posts in a "Mini-Releases" sticked thread for people who want to release or draw attention to a translation without making a full thread. Releases in this section have very lax formatting and may be turned into Normal Releases later by others. Posting in this thread explicitly surrenders exclusive rights to create a Normal Release thread which allows other people who care about formatting more to post them instead.
Normal Releases contain a translation patch for a title. Most of the current releases in the section are of this type.
- Posting the main game is allowed, but patches must be provided as separate downloads unless it's not possible due to circumstances like loss of original work or restrictive DRM.
- Posting the main game and the patch separately is encouraged, but posting them together into one combined download is allowed with some restrictions.
- Restriction for Releases threads that combine the : The user posting the patch and the game with the patch applied must be the creator of the patch. Otherwise, the thread should be placed in the Download Area instead. This still applies even if the patch is also available separately.
User Compilations are threads where users or well defined groups of people can release translated content. These are immune from certain formatting requirements and allow the user or group to mostly define their own formatting. Formatting must be within reason and subject to moderator discretion of course.
What do you think? Do you have any novel ways to approach this problem or are the changes above permissible?
I am asking about it here because I cannot implement either of those approaches on my own. It does involve relaxing the your previously stated rules to allow for 2 additional types of content formatting in that section. Either that, or splitting the forum into at least two forums, one for existing releases and a new forum for reduced requirements. Or perhaps another more novel approach? That "split" may be virtual and take the form of a moderation queue if the rules for the releases thread must be kept relatively strict and you believe other types of formatting should not be allowed even if confined to specific threads. Do the rules not allow adding the sticky thread + compilation thread approach? Or is the three different content types approach permissible?
To recap, your main point is that the "Translation Projects & Releases" forum currently has formatting and content requirements that may not accommodate all users' release styles. Adjustments are necessary to remain flexible for smaller contributions.
I generally prefer fewer forums and more threads, as it makes searching easier. With that in mind, I think the current three-forum setup would work well with your proposed solutions.
For clarity, There are three types of uploads:
The Patch
The Game with Patche pre-applied
The Original Game
The patches are harder to take down (dead link) and easier to maintain since they are usually smaller in size and can often be attached to our forum system. On the other hand, the game with the patch applied is more convenient for people to simply download and play.
In this section, I prefer to see posts with patches and the game with patches applied—not the original game itself.
The reason for this is that we have strict restrictions in the Download Forum to reduce low-effort posting: Often, people create an account, upload some items to make a quick buck, and then leave, repeating the process. Therefore, in the Download Zone section, if a user does not have the Uploader class, all of their posts go through a moderation queue, and without Contributor class status, they can only post one thread per hour.
My concern is that uploaders from the Download Zone might flood this section with similar low-quality, low-effort content by posting the original game without considering the rest. This is something you should be aware of as a moderator of this section.
Therefore, specific rules were established to prevent uploaders from the Download Zone from flooding this section with unrelated uploads.
However, we also recognize that posting the game with pre-applied patches is more convenient for most players and downloaders. We want to encourage some people to do this if the author chooses not to for various reasons.
Restriction for Releases threads that combine the : The user posting the patch and the game with the patch applied must be the creator of the patch. Otherwise, the thread should be placed in the Download Area instead. This still applies even if the patch is also available separately.
I don't know whether the patch creator want to aslo provide the game with patches applied (what's the situation at F95?), combined with our desire for more resources, not less, I think this restriction may be too heavy and could fail to address its intended purpose of preventing spammy, low-effort uploads.
Or Am I worrying too much? I'd need your input and insights here. The rest is pretty much good.
F95 basically has no structure or real moderation to the translation section. Nobody keeps formatting, sometimes you have issues even understanding what game they even talk about, and the only moderation happens when someone actually reports another person, or loli shota stuff.
Games with a translation already applied are only rarely shared there, and translation patches (especially MTLs) are usually just randomly thrown in the threads between 50 "+1" posts with little to no information.
There's some decent translation project threads, but overall It's pretty hard to find stuff and is not great.
Most translators who want to make a full release with the game use the Game Release section for that instead.
The Game Release section is very similar to the download section here, in that your thread needs to follow a strict format and every thread must be approved unless you are an Uploader.
Only uploading a patch is not allowed in the game section.
Speaking for myself I pretty much never use the Game Release section because I really don't want to deal with the process, but that is mostly because F95 has very inconsistent moderation lately, and because I have potato internet and uploading a full game takes a long time for me.
So in case Entai was also talking about me there, I have no intention of uploading the entire patched games. Especially not again for every single update. (If I notice a missing translation or something like that.)
While not convenient, I would prefer to just have patches and at most links to download threads of the original games.
I'm a bit more critical about allowing random uploads and re-uploads in the section, because there is no approved file host list here and most provided hosters here are usually not all that great for convenience.
So for example someone making a new thread for a Rapidgator link of a game with one of my translations applied, to me does not seem like it improves the section all that much.
If you and Entai are agreeable, we can easily structure it similarly:
Game Release: Normal Release - This would be where well-formatted releases are posted. Random Patch with Minimal Information: These can be collected into a "Mini-Releases" or "Mega Release" thread as Entai suggested.
We can also relax the requirement to be the patch creator for posting. Now anyone can share a patch, and providing credit becomes optional.
This way, anyone can post in the Release Forum. If they want a nicely formatted thread, they can create it. If not, they can simply add it to a mega-release or make a mega thread of their own thread and be done.
This approach should simplify the workload for both you and Entai.
To recap:
Mini-Releases
Single posts in a sticky "Mini-Releases" thread for quick sharing of translations without making a full thread.
Releases here have lax formatting and could later be turned into Normal Releases by others.
Normal Releases
Patch files are attached to the thread with strict formatting required. Including the game with patch pre-applied is recommended but not required.
This ensures the (small) patches remain accessible even if the uploader is no longer active, making them easy to find.
The poster doesn't need to be the patch's author, as long as they follow the rules.
If a separate patch cannot be provided, the thread will be moved to Downloads or deleted, UNLESS the poster is the patch's author with reasons for not providing a separate patch.
User's Mega-Thread
Similar to Normal Release but with fewer formatting requirements similar to Mini-Releases.
However, the same rule of upload rule from Normal Releases applies: A separate patch must be provided. If a separate patch cannot be provided, the thread will be moved to the Download section, unless the poster is the patch's author with technical reasons for not providing a separate patch.
This plan should help manage the section effectively while accommodating different user preferences for sharing content, while keeping this section distinct from the Downloads section.
Do we need to add a new prefix: [MegaThread] or [Compilations]?
One more suggestion from me would be to not allow duplicate release threads, but to allow duplicate download posts.
In the sense that the same patch can't have 2 threads, but people are allowed to post additional download links for the patch (In case of a patch too big to be directly attached), or for the already patched game, inside of that thread.
One more suggestion from me would be to not allow duplicate release threads, but to allow duplicate download posts.
In the sense that the same patch can't have 2 threads, but people are allowed to post additional download links for the patch (In case of a patch too big to be directly attached), or for the already patched game, inside of that thread.
That would make searching for something specific much more straight forward because there would be just one thread in the search results and you could just search that single thread for a working link instead of potentially having to check multiple ones. It would also make the section look a lot more tidy.
I only mean within the more strict "Normal Release" and "Tool" sections though.
On an older topic, are you still going to increase the attachment size/count for the Discussions section?
That would still be helpful for game guides and stuff like that. (To attach a lot of pictures)
I've talked with the maintainer of the Mad Island guide and he would actually want to make a thread here.
And I would rather have it in Translations Discussion instead of the Eroge Corner so I can moderate it and prevent it from becoming a complete mess...again.
On an older topic, are you still going to increase the attachment size/count for the Discussions section?
That would still be helpful for game guides and stuff like that. (To attach a lot of pictures)
I am glad we have mostly reached consensus on this. There are just a few details to iron out. I will go ahead and implement what this post refers to since it is just a continuation of what we were talking about before. I can reverse course if there are problems.
Some minor things to add are that the Mini-Releases thread should not allow full games to be posted at all. It is intended for patches only, albeit with the DRM, loss of content exclusions still applied.
It is not that it does not make sense for some people to be helpful there and post both the patch and the full game, but rather:
- It goes against the intent of the thread to share small patches with minimal effort.
- It makes it difficult to moderate download links for full games and related policies outside of the Downloads and Releases category. The Translation Releases forums is already doing this, but Normal Releases that allow this behavior are much more visible and hence easier to moderate.
- It would encourage abuse from people who look for ways to abuse the forum rules.
Not allowing people who have the full translated game to share it there is not ideal, but at the same it, it is a contradiction for them to be posting the full game there anyway since creating and uploading just the patch is usually much easier than bundling the entire game along with it and taking the time to upload it to a third party hosting service.
I also need a rule adjustment to add "excessive technical challenges" to the existing exclusions of "DRM" and "loss of content" when posting the already translated game. Just FYI.
Many patches can be applied just by copying the patches to the game directory and possibly overriding files. However, other patches cannot be applied this way because patching the game would require patching the main archive for generic assets which can be several gigabytes in size and contain mostly unrelated files, like with .asar archives, or patching the main executable of the game without any or few additional files to run the game, like with the Livemaker game engine.
I was thinking this too. If User/Translation Group Compilations are allowed, then a new prefix would be ideal to keep everything organized. I would prefer [Compilation], the singular forum instead of the plural [Compilations], but that is just a nit pick.
I was also thinking of allowing the same user to create multiple compilation threads for different types of content to honor how they would prefer their content organized. For example:
The difference between the two could be whether or not picture based text is translated or otherwise significant parts of the game or media are not translated. Right now Shisaye seems to prefer to create individual threads for their releases, but hypothetically if they wanted to switch to a Compilation thread approach, then that should be allowed.
Restriction for Releases threads that combine the [game and patch]: The user posting the patch and the game with the patch applied must be the creator of the patch. Otherwise, the thread should be placed in the Download Area instead. This still applies even if the patch is also available separately.
I don't know whether the patch creator want to aslo provide the game with patches applied (what's the situation at F95?), combined with our desire for more resources, not less, I think this restriction may be too heavy and could fail to address its intended purpose of preventing spammy, low-effort uploads.
Or Am I worrying too much? I'd need your input and insights here. The rest is pretty much good.
As long as they are not ever "required" to post the full game, then it is not burdensome. For games that have technical challenges on releasing only stand alone patches instead of the game and patch seperate because releasing the full game is easier, the opposite does apply. But clearly defined exclusions can handle that edge case so users are not overly burdened. Trying to explain the exclusions clearly might be a burden, but I will figure it out somehow.
However, there is a bigger problem of how to treat different releases that bundle the patch and/or the game. This is a very big problem when creating unified rules, guidance, and other recommendations on uploads because there are two categories are bleeding into each other here in the edge cases, namely the "Translation Projects & Releases" thread and the "Downloads and Requests" category. For that reason, having some overlap of the rules from the Downloads and Requests category is required here to create a uniform user experience. So, I would prefer some rules from the Downloads and Requests category be copied/enforced in the Translation Releases forum for those edge cases where the two categories overlap. Specifically, I would like those rules to apply in scenarios where the users merge the translation patch and the main game.
I think the rules for posting untranslated and translated games should adhere to the rules in the "Downloads and Requests" category in order to create a uniform rule-set, albeit those rules mostly apply only to the Thread Owner.
In other words, when the Thread Owner links the full game:
- Have at least one non-premium link required for the Thread Owner.
- Require the owner's approval for posting content links in their non-abandoned thread.
- Having a rate limit applied to new threads for non-Uploader status users.
Is the rate limit possible without implementing a moderation queue? I would like the rate limit at the same limit for the "Downloads and Requests" category since it would not affect normal users very much and users who want to post a lot have motivation to apply for Uploader status.
Stepping back for a moment, the fundamental idea behind the translation forums is to allow translations and related content to be welcome. It is not the intent of those forums to create a second "Downloads and Requests" category however. None the less, it would not create a welcoming environment for both thread owners and users that are not the owners of the thread if either group were penalized in some way for providing the full game in instances where it would be genuinely helpful to both groups of users. There in lies the contradiction that will never be fully rooted out under the current rule-set.
I think you were exactly correct when you pointed out the following:
There's no restriction on whether users can or cannot post the main game, but providing the separate patch on top of posting the main game with patch applied.
The release is valid as long as the patch or the patch and the game with patch is provided.
- Best - separated patch, and game with patch applied.
- Valid - just the patch, or patch and game with patch applied.
- Exceptional - game with patch applied only (due to DRM, loss of original files etc)
I've decided that the distinction between the Translation section and the Download Zone section is as follows:
The user posting the patch and the game with the patch applied must be the creator of the patch. Otherwise, the thread should be placed in the Download Area instead.
A separate patch should be provided unless it's not possible due to circumstances like loss of original work or restrictive DRM.
Idea: The translation patch or translation must always be available in some form distinct from the original media, such as a game.
There is are very narrow exceptions for this (DRM/loss of content/excessive technical challenges), but I think this principle is overall a good unifying principle to try to keep the "Downloads and Requests" and "Translation Releases" separate. If the translation patch cannot be provided separately, then users are usually better off posting in the "Downloads and Requests" section instead, and if they want to discuss the translation directly, then they can create a second thread in the "Translation Discussions" section and link to their release thread that is somewhere under the "Downloads and Requests" category.
So to flesh out the general guidelines for the "Translation Projects & Releases" thread, here are all of the edge cases I can think of. These scenarios assume the thread owner does not mind random users posting the game or other content in their translation patch release thread. If they do, then the thread-hijacking rules apply and the edge cases listed here do not apply meaning that certain types of posts by normal users will be removed or altered at the Thread Owner's request.
- Thread Owner is the person who posted a normal release thread.
- User is a different user posting in Thread Owner's thread.
- "untranslated game" is the raw game without any translation applied.
- "translated game" is the game bundled with the same translation they posted.
- Nothing means a post that does not contain any released content.
- "patch" means a separate file or document that contains the translated contents of the media developed by the thread owner.
- Red means needs to be moved to a different forum.
Thread Owner: Nothing ; User: Nothing
Thread Owner: Nothing ; User: patch
Thread Owner: Nothing ; User: untranslated game
Thread Owner: Nothing ; User: translated game
Thread Owner: untranslated game ; User: Nothing
Thread Owner: untranslated game ; User: patch
Thread Owner: untranslated game ; User: untranslated game
Thread Owner: untranslated game ; User: translated game
Thread Owner: translated game ; User: Nothing
Thread Owner: translated game ; User: patch
Thread Owner: translated game ; User: untranslated game
Thread Owner: translated game ; User: translated game
Thread Owner: patch ; User: Nothing
Thread Owner: patch ; User: patch
Thread Owner: patch ; User: untranslated game
Thread Owner: patch ; User: translated game
Thread Owner: patch + untranslated game ; User: Nothing
Thread Owner: patch + untranslated game ; User: patch
Thread Owner: patch + untranslated game ; User: untranslated game
Thread Owner: patch + untranslated game ; User: translated game
Thread Owner: patch + translated game ; User: Nothing
Thread Owner: patch + translated game ; User: patch
Thread Owner: patch + translated game ; User: untranslated game
Thread Owner: patch + translated game ; User: translated game
Thread Owner: patch + game combinations ; User: Various patch + game combinations
Conclusions: If the Thread Owner does not post the patch, then the thread is not allowed in the Translation Projects & Releases forum as a Normal Release/Thread. It would still be allowed as a Translation Discussion or in the Downloads and Requests category depending on content. Provided it is not thread-hijacking, as defined by the Thread Owner, then there is no problem with whatever users post under them, such as updated patch versions, links to release threads, or games with a patch already applied.
For the niche case where the patch cannot be provided due to DRM or loss of content reasons, then posting just the translated game is allowed, but this must be clearly stated with details provided in the Thread Owner's first post. If it is not, then the thread should get moved to the Downloads and Requests category.
There are also the question about how to treat patches that are provided by the Thread Owner that they did not create.
I tend to agree that if the person posting the patch is not the originator of the patch, then they are more than likely not providing anything novel. Rather they are providing a patch they most likely obtained from elsewhere that anyone can also obtain from that source. In that case, they are better off providing just the patch. If they are just providing the patch that they did not create, then that clearly belongs in the Translation Projects & Releases forum because they are posting only a translation. At the same time, it is not the intent of the Translation Projects & Releases forum to be a duplicate "Downloads and Requests" category, so if they are including the main game, then they should post their release under Downloads and Requests.
"T-O patch" means the patch was produced by the Thread Owner.
"non-T-O patch" means the patch was not produced by the Thread Owner.
Green means allowed in the "Translation Projects & Releases" forum as a Normal Release.
Red means needs to be moved to "Downloads and Requests" category.
Thread Owner: T-O patch + untranslated game ; User: Nothing Thread Owner: non-T-O patch + untranslated game ; User: Nothing
Thread Owner: T-O patch + translated game ; User: Nothing Thread Owner: non-T-O patch + translated game ; User: Nothing
--------- Thread Owner: T-O patch ; User: game Thread Owner: non-T-O patch ; User: game <-- Contradiction
Thread Owner: T-O patch + untranslated game ; User: game Thread Owner: non-T-O patch + untranslated game ; User: game
Thread Owner: T-O patch + translated game ; User: game Thread Owner: non-T-O patch + translated game ; User: game
As can be seen above, there is a slight contradiction where if the Thread Owner posts a patch they did not create without the game, and a user posts the game later in that same thread, then that is allowed, but if the Thread Owner posts the same thing, the game, in their OP, then it is suddenly not allowed. That is somewhat nonsensical, and a result of the earlier contradiction of allowing users, including the Thread Owners, to post the game in that forum.
There could be several strategies to remove this contradiction, like disallowing users to post game links, or explicitly allowing Thread Owners to post games next to the patches they did not create, but it might be better to live with that contradiction since this is a niche case and because removing the contradiction in the ways I pointed out would either not be user friendly, or creates a duplicate Downloads and Requests category. The first condition to create this niche case is that the person did not create the patch and the second condition is that someone else posted the full game meaning that there are two notable contributions to the same thread which is not the norm.
I think this requires more thought and am not exactly sure how to handle this. I think the overriding rules should be the foundational principles of those three forums which is to allow translation patches, allow translation resources to be centralized, not punish users for being helpful, and not create a duplicate of the Downloads and Requests category. Since those principles contradict in this case, I am not 100% on the correct way to handle this.
A person should not think that the Translation section is an appropriate place to release their game just because they happen to have a translation for it. If they are currently releasing such content somewhere in the Downloads and Requests category, then the status quo should not change. The point of the Downloads and Requests category is specifically for that type of content because the person intends to release the full game and the intent of the Downloads and Requests category is to handle such content explicitly, as opposed to being a niche case like it is in the Translation Projects & Releases forum. Allowing content with the game to be posted in the translation section for patches not originating from the Thread Owner would effectively create a duplicate Downloads and Requests category.
Therefore, despite the slight contradiction that I posted out above, I think the original policy of disallowing patches to be posted next to games by the Thread Owner if they did not create the game is the "least bad option." The other options that I can think of are not as friendly towards users.
Looking at it from another perspective, it could be thought of as if there were an odd exception to Thread Owners being allowed to post the game if they created the patch, but I think this is permissible because Thread Owners who created their own patches are most knowledgeable people when it comes to creating instructions on how to integrate their patches with the game. Another person besides the originator of the patch is at a disadvantage there, so granting the right to post the game itself with the patch integrated next to your patch release can be thought of as a special privilege, a special exclusion, or special reward, to someone who went out of their way to create and post the patch in the first place.
Is it okay if I implement what I discussed above as-is? Are there any changes you would prefer @Checkmate and @Shisaye?
One more suggestion from me would be to not allow duplicate release threads, but to allow duplicate download posts.
In the sense that the same patch can't have 2 threads, but people are allowed to post additional download links for the patch (In case of a patch too big to be directly attached), or for the already patched game, inside of that thread.
A single VNDB entry can have multiple wildly different releases under the same heading. The same title may be released initially on CDs, only to be released again later on a different game engine as a DVD or download, or as a special edition with bonus, removed, or censored content. For RPGM, the same game may be published by one developer and localized by another and both versions and multiple bug fix versions of both games floating around and the patch released by a user only works with a very specific obscure version that is a completely different version that everyone else uses.
A translation patch may require one or the other version of a game and different users can post different patches and different updates to existing patches for different version of a game and they would still all be under the same VNDB ID. If you are trying to use DLSite codes instead, not all games are on DLSite and DLSite can have multiple different codes for the same game, such as base game + DLC differences or their own internal translations. Should these be in separate threads? What about standalone DLCs that continue the plot but can optionally be purchased together and run using a unified UI?
Sometimes a user may release an translation patch for only the DLC if there is already a translated version of the main game elsewhere. However, their DLC patch only works with the Japanese translated version, not the localized version that has the DLC integrated but with content removed. Is another user that creates a restoration patch that ports the removed content of the DLC to a different version of the game on a different engine, in a completely different language from the original patch, a duplicate of the previous user's translation patch? They would be patching different game engines with different content on each in different languages. Are those all the same? Which are and which are not?
Some games really do have dozens of different releases for the same game. This is not a hypothetical or obscure concern. Here is an example.
Are Muv-Luv Altered Fable and Muv-Luv Photomelodies the same game? How do you know they are? How do you know they are not? If you think the different titles mean they are different, then consider that the developer may also just change the name at some point so different valid names for the same content. That happens for Anime all the time and games all the time. In addition due to the nature of translation and localization, the same exact game may be released under wildly different titles, all of which are valid thread names under the existing rule-set for releases in the Translation Projects & Releases forum. Who is going to becoming an expert on all of the content ever released and figure out if every thread is a duplicate or not? I am not.
More to the point, are Muv-Luv Altered Fable and Muv-Luv Photomelodies the same game? Yes, or no? Which is it? This needs an answer if you are going to say "no duplicates" because there are translation patches of these games floating around. If you say yes, then you will instantly anger the fans who resent the changes made in Photomelodies to the story and routes and consider it a completely different alternative retelling. If you say no, then you are still angering the people who think it is all the same story regardless of any heavily controversial changes made and altered content. It is a lose-lose situation either way to get in between a fan and their fandom and to pick a side in a flame war. Both answers are bad since you are putting moderators in the position to pick a side when that is not the purpose of thread moderation on anime-sharing. Moderators should never be picking a side in a flame war as part of their moderator duties.
My point here is not that those questions do not have answers if you try hard enough to find them, but rather that it puts moderators in a position where they have to sort out that mess of what is or is not a duplicate. I do not want to do that. The last thing I would ever want is to get in between a fan and their fandom. There are no instances where that can ever end well. They clearly have their own view on the subject, and no rules on some forum somewhere will ever change their mind. In addition, the rules themselves are liable to start a flame war. No thank you. Not my cup of tea.
Instead of that, it should be left up to the users who created and posted their content who are far more familiar with their content to sort through that mess when they are creating their releases and organize it in a way they think makes sense to them. They already have to do that anyway in order to create the release thread anyway, so I do not see the value of duplicating or verifying their work every single time because it imposes an unreasonably heavy burden for the moderators that I will absolutely not be doing myself.
TLDR: If you want to do this, Shisaye, that is on you to enforce that "no duplicates" rule. I do not even consider that rule to be enforceable, much less a good idea, and rules and guidelines should not be created if they are not enforceable.
The only thing that I agree that should not be duplicated is that the same user should not be allowed to create multiple threads of the exact same game, as defined by them, differing only in the version of the patch they are releasing, like releasing an MTL of a patch, and then an MTL AI patch later or with additional or differently translated images, or additional languages. That should be posted as a follow up post in their existing thread with bumping allowed in that case because they are making major alterations to the main content that thread was intended to release, but it still belongs in the same thread since it is a revision or extension of their previous work.
Random question: If a user initially has an MTL of a release and change sit to Edited MTL, MTL AI, or an non-MTL release and they want to update the title to reflect that, then they have the permission to do so, right? If not, then I know that I would have to do it on their request.
Patch files are attached to the thread with strict formatting required. Including the game with patch pre-applied is recommended but not required.
This ensures the (small) patches remain accessible even if the uploader is no longer active, making them easy to find.
The poster doesn't need to be the patch's author, as long as they follow the rules.
If a separate patch cannot be provided, the thread will be moved to Downloads or deleted, UNLESS the poster is the patch's author with reasons for not providing a separate patch.
I would prefer to keep the requirement that if a person who is not the author of a patch posts it, and the full game, then they must post in the Downloads and Requests category instead.
The Downloads and Requests category already exists for that purpose and has appropriate moderation. I would rather not create a second category where such releases are allowed. That just makes things more confusing in the long run. A person including a translation patch with their game release should not be tempted to release their game in the "Translation Projects & Threads" section when their primary intent is primary to release the full game, rather the translation for it.
They should not find safe harbor for their game release in the "Translation Projects & Releases" section because of 1) the duplicate categories issue and 2) also because I would rather direct users to post in a category that has well defined existing moderation systems in place than moderate those releases myself.
Such releases were already welcome in the "Downloads and Requests" category in the first place, and I would rather not change the status quo for existing releases. That is not the intent of the translation forums.
