Question Clarifications on 'Translations Projects' section.

Entai2965

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Dec 28, 2023
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This forum is currently not very friendly towards translators, so I am requesting clarification that the current state of affairs is as intended.

I found this old post by admin 'corocoro' directly answering where to post translation related materials, but I am not sure if it is still valid or not since this forum now has a 'dedicated' section for 'Translations Projects'.

https://www.anime-sharing.com/threads/translations-where-would-one-post-them.709465/post-3093625


corocoro said:
Hm, I thought this was answered already, but here goes:

Translation files without the original game go in the modding section: http://www.anime-sharing.com/forum/requests-releases-tools-other-mods-123/
A complete, translated game goes into the hentai games section: http://www.anime-sharing.com/forum/hentai-games-38/
A status/feedback thread goes into the eroge corner: http://www.anime-sharing.com/forum/eroge-corner-102/

It is not clear that the 'Translations Projects' section existed when the admin issued their guidance hence asking for clarifications that their guidance still applies 7 years later.

Taking what the admin said at face value, that means translations are not allowed to be posted in the "Translations Projects" section. Is that correct? Or are translations allowed to be posted in the "Translations Projects" section? Does it depend on whether it includes the main game or not?

Reading the description for the 'Translations Projects' section and the other sections, it seems to imply that only 'translation projects' are allowed there, not translation requests or finished translations.
- Are game, manga, vn, ln, translation requests allowed in the 'Translations Projects' section? Which of those categories are allowed? Which are not?
- Are finished translations, without the game, allowed in the 'Translations Projects' section?
- Are finished translations, with the game pre-bundled and distributed together, allowed in the 'Translations Projects' section?
- Are finished translations, with the game not-bundled but provided as a seperate link, allowed in the 'Translations Projects' section?
Example: A user provides a link to a translation and the game as two different links.

There are a lot of translation related threads, including projects, that are not in the 'Translations Projects' section.
Random example: https://www.anime-sharing.com/threads/sonicomi-motto-sonicomi-translation-project.235726/
- Are these threads not in the 'Translations Projects' section miscategoried or is dual/multiple-categorization allowed without any bias for which section they are in? 'Should' they be in the 'Translations Projects' section?
- If the thread owner requests they be moved to the 'Translations Projects' section, will they be moved?
- If I, not the read owner, flag them and request they be moved to the 'Translations Projects' section for organizational purposes, will they be moved?
- If I obtain permission from the thread owner to request to flag their thread to get it moved to the 'Translations Projects' section, will it be moved?
- If I am not able to obtain permission from the tread owner to move their thread because the thread owner is no longer active on this forum in the last 30 days, and I flag a thread to move it to the 'Translations Projects' section, will it be moved?

I keep putting 'Translations Projects' in quotes because it is incorrect grammar in English to put two plurals next to each other like that. 'Translations' and 'Translation Projects' are both correct, but 'Translations Projects' is not. Is that grammar error intentional? What is it meant to imply? If it is not intentional, can it be renamed easily to a grammatically correct form?
 
TLDR: If you want to do this, Shisaye, that is on you to enforce that "no duplicates" rule. I do not even consider that rule to be enforceable, much less a good idea, and rules and guidelines should not be created if they are not enforceable.
I'll happily do that then.
Because unlike you I'm not completely overthinking this.
This is not about 2 threads of the same game, this is about re-uploads of the exact same thing.

If person A posts a translation patch, and then Person B wants to make a new thread re-uploading that exact translation patch again, I'm just not going to approve the thread.
A different version of the translation patch would be allowed again, because that is not a duplicate. Otherwise a lot of threads could end up outdated, because you want to allow people to share patches they did not make themselves.
But if a patch thread was not posted by the original creator, said original creator should be allowed to make a new thread for it in "Normal Releases" or take ownership of the existing one.

Where is the issue? Why do you want to allow people to spam 50 threads sharing the exact same thing?

Also in case you missed that bit, I am only talking about the Normal Releases and the Tools releases, not the mini releases or collection threads.

I don't think an approval queue for the mini releases or collection threads would make much sense if the point is to allow poorly formatted threads there.
 
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If person A posts their translation patch, and then Person B wants to make a new thread re-uploading that exact translation patch again,
If you are basing the "duplicate" label on the "duplicate patch" concept instead of the "duplicate game" concept, then that opens up a lot more issues than even my rant pointed out.

- If I change a single line in that patch and reupload it, is it the same patch?
- If one user makes an MTL patch and another user makes a proper TL patch, are they the same patch?
- Are you going to force both MTL and non-MTL into the same thread? How do you think users that hate MTL will react seeing their non-MTL patches in the same threads as MTL patches?
- The language and MTL patch user-generated prefixes that Checkpoint pointed out earlier become meaningless because more than one language exists to translate content to on this planet. In other words, you can potentially have no languages for thread titles, or dozens of them if you are forcing multiple languages and different patches into the same thread.
- How are you going to start enforcing they are the "same patch" anyway? Are you going to check? Really? Are you going to start requiring hashes or calculate them yourself e.g. download every single file uploaded to you can hash-check it? Really?

Where is the issue? Why do you want to allow people to spam 50 threads sharing the same thing?
What exactly is "the same thing"? If you are using hashes to differentiate, then are two otherwise identical patches made by two different users using the same software and the same translation that have different hashes "the same thing"? How do you know? Are you going to check every single translation posted to make sure the translations are different from every other translation ever released all the way through since hashes are not enough?

It is not a workable or enforceable system in any way shape or form. The benefit to thinking things through is that you avoid the mess ahead of time instead of having to discover that you created a mess earlier. I'd rather avoid it entirely.

It also contradicts the existing moderation policies of most threads on anime-sharing and the [my] intent to have a relatively lax moderation policies in that section in order to encourage users to post in a welcoming environment. Some people want their own threads and no interaction with moderators since mods can be intimidating. Telling users that is not allowed and that they must post a different thread type to avoid a moderation is not welcoming.

Edit: But obviously if a patch thread was not posted by the original creator, said original creator should be allowed to make a new thread or take ownership of the existing one.
Wait, what happened to no duplicate threads? You are contradicting yourself here by allowing two threads sharing the same patch if a patch was posted by a non-creator and the creator comes along later. What? Are you awake?

Edit: Basically, I agree with you in the sense that I think we should discourage this behavior in the same way that anime-sharing already discourages duplicates releases for the same game as part of the existing rules. However, that is not an enforceable policy, so just stating that it is "discouraged" is the most that could realistically be done because enforcement is completely unworkable. Trying to force it through despite being unworkable is a recipe for disaster on multiple levels for a wide variety of reasons.
 
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How do you know? Are you going to check every single translation posted
Yes I am. We should already be doing that to prevent people from sharing harmful/misplaced content.
Are you seriously planning to approve a thread without checking what it's actually sharing?
I understand that wont be possible in mini releases, but if we actually approve something manually, then obviously it should be allowed content.
Wait, what happened to no duplicate threads? You are contradicting yourself here by allowing two threads sharing the same patch if a patch was posted by a non-creator and the creator comes alone later. What? Are you awake?
It's not a contradiction, it's a necessary addition because you went against the suggestion of Checkmate to only allow the original creator to post it in the first place.
Obviously the original translator should be the owner of the thread, if they want to be, everything else would be ridiculous.

We can expect a minimum amount of common sense from people.
That is the point of having this in the rules:
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Yes I am. We should already be doing that to prevent people from sharing harmful/misplaced content.
Are you seriously planning to approve a thread without checking what it's actually sharing?
I understand that wont be possible in mini releases, but if we actually approve something manually, then obviously it should be allowed content.
I prefer not to have a moderation queue at all. I'd rather be as hands off about moderation as possible since that is a more welcoming environment. I can monitor the mini-releases thread manually, but manually checking every release and manually downloading files to hash them when there are no reported issues is overly burdensome. I am not interested in doing that.

It's not a contradiction, it's a necessary addition because you went against the suggestion of Checkmate to only allow the original creator to post it in the first place.
Obviously the original translator should be the owner of the thread, if they want to be, everything else would be ridiculous.
It is a contradiction. Even if you point out a reason for that contradiction being necessary or existing, it is still a contradiction. You can't say "no duplicate threads" and then immediately allow duplicate threads and not have that be a contradiction. Some contradictions are avoidable, others are not, but each one should be carefully thought out about why and how it occurs and the impact it has on the users and the forum.

It is necessary to allow people who did not create a patch to post a release there because that is the core point of that entire "Translation Projects & Releases" forum. Not allowing this defeats the entire purpose of it because you would be telling users that have a translation patch that they are not allowed to share the translation patch in a forum dedicated to releasing them. Pushing their content into user-specific threads or the mini-releases thread is not acceptable. Users must be able to publish content as normal threads if they wish to do so because forums exist to accommodating users, not the other way around.

Also, answer my question.
What exactly is "the same thing"?
Let's hear it. What is not "the same thing"? I gave you examples.
- If I change a single line in that patch and reupload it, is it the same patch?
- If one user makes an MTL patch and another user makes a proper TL patch, are they the same patch?
- Are you going to force both MTL and non-MTL into the same thread? How do you think users that hate MTL will react seeing their non-MTL patches in the same threads as MTL patches?
- The language and MTL patch user-generated prefixes that Checkpoint pointed out earlier become meaningless because more than one language exists to translate content to on this planet. In other words, you can potentially have no languages for thread titles, or dozens of them if you are forcing multiple languages and different patches into the same thread.
- How are you going to start enforcing they are the "same patch" anyway? Are you going to check? Really? Are you going to start requiring hashes or calculate them yourself e.g. download every single file uploaded to you can hash-check it? Really?
? If you are using hashes to differentiate, then are two otherwise identical patches made by two different users using the same software and the same translation that have different hashes "the same thing"? How do you know? Are you going to check every single translation posted to make sure the translations are different from every other translation ever released all the way through since hashes are not enough?

What is your response?
 
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What is your response?
My response is once again "common sense".

If the file is named the same, has the same size, and the poster of the thread does not tell you how it's different, it's not different, even if the hashes don't match perfectly.

If the file is differently named, but the contents are the same size and neither the new name nor the post explain how it's different. It is not different.

If someone fixed even just a single typo in the translation and explains that in the post, it's different.
We are not obligated to check if it's true as long as the contents "seem" to match the description and are otherwise allowed on this forum.
 
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My response is once again "common sense".

If the file is named the same, has the same size, and the poster of the thread does not tell you how it's different, it's not different, even if the hashes don't match perfectly.

If the file is differently named, but the contents are the same size and neither the new name nor the post explain how it's different. It is not different.
If someone fixed even just a single typo in the translation and explains that in the post, it's different.
I am assuming you are basing your logic on "duplicate patches" not "duplicate games" because games are allowed to be posted in that forum. We haven't started talking about the million impossible issues in trying to verify game releases with various patches applied as "identical" yet while also verifying patches on top of that.

So, you are defaulting to "the patches must not be the same". What exactly are you going to do when someone posts a patch you declare "is the same"? Are you going to delete their thread? Are you going to start hash checking then? Will you delete their content without hash checking? What if the hashes turn out to be different? Well, you are just ignoring hashes anyway, so a user did not document how exactly their patch is different from all other patches are you going to delete their threads?

Basing the "duplicate" logic on "patches must not be the same" instead of "games must be the same" is extremely problematic and self-contradictry. Example: What exactly are you going to do when the same person posts a 2nd thread in that forum with the same game with a genuinely different patch for the same game? I am pretty sure your "no duplicates" rule is laughable at that point because then you are allowing two threads by the same user about the same exact game because they only differ in the version of the patch they are posting. That is crazy. Any reasonable standard of what a "duplicate" is, is based around "the games must not be the same" because otherwise you are allowing a large number of duplicates to spam that section. That 50 threads of "the same thing" which you found objectionable earlier becomes true at this point and you are even encouraging it by allowing different versions of patches to be treated as first-rate citizens by using that as the standard by which to base "duplicate" logic on.

We are not obligated to check if it's true as long as the contents "seem" to match the description and are otherwise allowed on this forum.
Checking the hash means you are probably downloading the file checking if what the poster is saying is true or not. How is this enforceable? Are you going to start big spreadsheet filled with files and hashes? Or if you are not doing anything at all, not downloading files, not hash checking, not checking the contents of the patch, and taking the thread owner's word for it overall, then what is the point of the moderation queue? What is the point of saying earlier that you wanted to verifying anything if you are going to instantly turn around and just take the thread owner's word for it? You are just giving users a false sense of security by telling them that the thread passed moderation when nothing was actually done besides formatting. If the only thing required is formatting then the moderation queue is pointless. Formatting issues are minor and can be fixed dynamically by moderators in real time. Moderation is not needed if you are trying to avoid formatting mistakes and telling users you are moderating for content is deceptive if you are not going to take the time to seriously verify that content, like scanning it through AV and hashing it.
 
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I'm going to wait for Checkmate's input because we obviously seem to fundamentally disagree here.

Edit: But I guess since I never actually directly said it. As far as I'm concerned full games do not belong in the translation section at all unless a patch is impossible. I do not see why this forum needs another game download section.
But I don't have a rigid position on any of this, I will follow the orders of the admin.
 
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But if a patch thread was not posted by the original creator, said original creator should be allowed to make a new thread for it in "Normal Releases" or take ownership of the existing one.
Transferring ownership of threads creates all sorts of horrible ethical hazards and drama around links, credit for uploading games, patches, upvotes. This is one of the implications of the "no duplicates" concept: to make anime-sharing moderators an accessory to thread-hijacking. This is such a monumentally bad idea that I do not think you are truly serious about it or properly considering the implications of this.
I'm going to wait for @Checkmate's input because we obviously seem to fundamentally disagree here.
I think you should defend your position, instead of waiting for someone to bail you out, if not here, then in PMs.

There are so many logical errors, ethical concerns, user prioritization violations, moderation burdens, technical challenges to not allowing duplicates in the way you envision it that I honestly believe you are trolling.
 
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There are so many logical errors, ethical concerns, user prioritization violations, moderation burdens, technical challenges to not allowing duplicates in the way you envision it that I honestly believe you are trolling.
You are suggesting to manually approve a thread with illegal/harmful content just because you cannot be arsed to make a quick check of the download links.
What on earth is our purpose as moderators if we don't even do the bare minimum to keep users safe?

And what the hell are you talking about with user prioritization? Obviously a translator, someone who actually contributes is worth more than a normal user.
The translation wouldn't even exist without them.
Have you lost your mind?
 
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You are suggesting to manually approve a thread with illegal/harmful content just because you cannot be arsed to make a quick check of the download links.
What on earth is our purpose as moderators if we don't even do the bare minimum to keep users safe?
What exactly is the 'bare minimum'? Are you really suggesting the bare minimum requires a moderation queue where a moderator has to manually approve each post? Do you think that queue should apply to releases, guides, and discussions or a subset of those three forums? Which ones?

For some perspective, there are additional moderation techniques, like adding a delay before posts automatically appear to give moderators time to spot problems or a formal moderation queue but with auto-approval. I am not sure if either of these approaches are available on this forum, but we should at least consider these alternative approaches before going all in on the manual approval moderator queue for all three translation forums.

Fundamentally, there are different moderation approaches. The one suggested by Checkmate earlier here that creates a welcoming user experience is the "hands off" approach where moderators exist to step in if there is a problem and spot check things. This occasionally involves turning a blind eye to very minor rule violations unless there is a problem. That does not apply to major violations of course. The idea expressed is to not proactively act as a gatekeeper for content because that is a very heavy handed moderation approach that is not as friendly towards end users. I am not interested in doing that because it is harmful to the user experience and takes a lot of moderator time with very few benefits. A very well thought out system with clearly defined rules and places for all content is mostly self-regulating. With the "hands off" approach, there is no role for moderators beyond spot checking things unless there is a problem.
And what the hell are you talking about with user prioritization?

User prioritization means that there are multiple aspects to consider when potentially making and creating guidelines, and when considering such alterations, prioritizing the end user experience is at the top of that list. It is only if there is an extraordinarily compelling reason to compromise that features should be implemented that diminish the user experience. Spam would ultimately diminish the user experience, and so it is valid to create policies that try to combat spam maximally while also affecting the end user experience minimally. Do you think your policies do that or is there a way to impact the user experience even less?

A moderation queue, especially where content must be manually approved instead of a timeout queue where it is posted automatically after a small delay, is a very heavy handed approach to moderation to the point where it negatively impacts the user experience. Users post their content, and nothing happens. Nobody wants to see the thread they worked on disappear into the void and now at the whim of some moderator to approve or disapprove of depending upon how they happen to feel that day. That is the F95 approach which you are taking issue with lately, remember?, and that approach still requires extremely well defined rules with minimal moderator discretion involved, so users are not surprised later. If you dislike your content being at the whim of F95's moderators, why are you trying to duplicate that system here? Why are you trying to post on anime-sharing in the first place? Do your positions regarding implementing a moderator queue and "deduplication" align with those goals?

Another byproduct of vague rules based on "common sense" where you refuse to clearly work out every edge case and eventually or contradictory rules as a negative impact to the user experience.

Obviously a translator, someone who actually contributes is worth more than a normal user.
The translation wouldn't even exist without them.

You are using these words in a very different way that most people do. By "normal user" I think you mean "a user who posts a translation patch they do not claim to have created by MTL or otherwise." By "translator" I think you mean "a user who posts a translation patch they do claim to have created, even if by MTL." These are not very different groups of people, but you are giving one huge prioritization to the point where are you allowing them to claim ownership of other people's threads. How do you think the original thread owners will feel about that?

How exactly do you differentiate between a "normal user" posting translation patches and a "translator" doing exactly the same thing? Are we just supposed to take their word for it whether or not they are the originator of the patch?

If you are not verifying it, then you are putting moderators in a position where they are obligated to take at face value whatever users say and deal with the resulting fallout when moderators should not be in a position to decide or have to care about this at all. While the forum itself should be welcoming to content creators, individual moderators should not be in a position where it is necessary to decide who is and is not a content creator.

Or if you are not willing to blindly accept whatever they say, then how exactly do you establish "ownership" of a patch in a concrete way anyway? Is the "owner" of the patch the person who created the translation or the patch?

Let's say one person translated it from scratch, not MTL, another person created the patch based upon output from some software that took them ~5 seconds, and another person created the Normal Release thread and took the time to upload the patch + a second link bundling the patch with the main game. Who did the most work to translate the game? Who is the patch owner there? Who is the rightful owner of the thread there, in your view? If the actual original translator and the creator of the patch both request ownership of the same thread, then who do you tell to piss off? Do you understand how the "no duplicate patches" + ownership transfers puts moderators in a lose-lose situation?

Next is enforcement. Lets say a user is lying about "owning" a patch and requests to take ownership of another user's thread. So now you are putting yourself in the position where you think it is appropriate for a moderator to be an accessory to thread hijacking.

At no point should anyone who is lying be able to take control of another person's thread, get another tread deleted, alter another user's content, links, likes, etc. That is completely unethical from top to bottom. The forum policies should not make this worse but giving some users special privileges to hijack other people's threads.

As Checkmate pointed out, you can't have both no thread hijacking rules that imply Thread Ownership and the existence of a Thread Owner and then also have a "no duplicates" rule. If there are "no duplicates allowed," whatever that means, then everyone must be allowed to post in the same thread. Transferring ownership of threads should not be possible because otherwise you are putting moderators in a position to decide who is the rightful owner which is an unnecessary fight that moderators should not be in a position to decide anyway.

If person A posts a translation patch, and then Person B wants to make a new thread re-uploading that exact translation patch again, I'm just not going to approve the thread.
My response is once again "common sense".

If the file is named the same, has the same size, and the poster of the thread does not tell you how it's different, it's not different, even if the hashes don't match perfectly.

If the file is differently named, but the contents are the same size and neither the new name nor the post explain how it's different. It is not different.
Are you really going to start proactively deleting people's content without any proof of patches being duplicates just because they are similar enough to you based on the vague and undefined policy of "common sense"? Your "common sense" is to default to deleting people's posts and assuming everything is a duplicate without requiring hash-matches. How is that "common sense"? It isn't for me!

Even if they are "patch duplicates," let's say a patch is a hash-duplicate of another patch previously posted by itself, but a second user takes the time to integrate that into the game and uploads both, crediting the source of the patch appropriately. Are you going to delete their thread as a result for being a "duplicate"? What message do you think you are sending to that user who went to the trouble of integrating the patch with the game, creating a well formatted thread, uploading the bundled game to a hosting service, and wanted to be rewarded for their work by having their own thread? Do you think that is an appropriate message to send to users who contribute content, their work, and their links on anime-sharing in general?

Since you are not requiring hash matches to declare one patch the same as another, then your current policy is to delete people's posts if you think it is a duplicate which now immediately requires a new guideline where Normal Release thread authors must clearly define how their patch is different from every other patch ever released or risk getting their content deleted by a zealous moderator. That rewards people who lie about their patches being unique and hurts those who are just trying to post their patch if someone previously posted anything similar, as defined by you. Without hashing, it is completely impractical to validate whether or not each patch actually is or is not a duplicate because you would have to run it with the game to actually find out if it is a duplicate or not. If you not going to do that, then you are back to blindly believing whatever the user who posted their patch says. If they say "my patch is unique", then there is no alternative but to allow their post. If you do not want to blindly believe them, then you are back to hash matching which you apparently do not want to do.
If someone fixed even just a single typo in the translation and explains that in the post, it's different.
We are not obligated to check if it's true as long as the contents "seem" to match the description and are otherwise allowed on this forum.
So, you are not actually checking if the patches are or are not duplicates then? So after all of your talk about not allowing duplicates you are actually fine with compromising on this just by blindly believing what they say?

More importantly, this is a very different way of defining "duplicate threads" than normal people do. When most people think of duplicate threads, they think of threads that are posting the same game. You are defining "duplicates" as based on the patch which makes it possible to have multiple threads by the same user for the same game and same patch type if they fix a single typo in the patch. If you say this is not allowed, then why exactly is this not allowed? Having vague undefined policies based around "common sense" is not good enough. You need clear reasons to accept or reject things. So, are duplicates threads based around the concept of duplicate patches or not? Yes, or no? If they are, then this makes it valid for a user to spam 50 threads where each thread is only different by 50 typos.
Where is the issue? Why do you want to allow people to spam 50 threads sharing the exact same thing?
Do you really not see the issue with this? Of allowing people to spam 50 threads of the exact same thing? These threads with matching users + game + patch type can obviously and should be grouped into one thread, but your decision to base duplicates on the patch itself means that you are now in a position of having to require allowing 50 threads if the user claims each patch is different from the others.
Have you lost your mind?
Well, have you? Your own core logic contradicts itself by allowing spam. If you disagree, then what is the exact rational for disallowing those threads?

Even if you add an extra rule to base what is a duplicate on both the patch + the game, then you are still dealing with other users posting the patch integrated with the game in their own threads. How do you intend on handling this? In addition, basing duplicates on the game is not at all a straight-forward solution because now you are dealing with the implementation challenges of both determine unique patches and determining unique games which opens up your system to the criticisms I pointed out here. Those criticisms do include having moderators pick sides in flame wars which I believe to be inappropriate.

The implementation details DO matter. Saying "common sense" and waving away the rules is not good enough. You need to clearly define each rule or guidance principle and analyze the practical consequences of implementing it. Then that rule or concept has resulting policies where you must check to see if those policies are still workable and ask yourself in every step when crafting them what exact message you are sending to users as a result of that rule or guideline. Are you telling users their content is welcome or are you rejecting the input of users trying to share helpful, relevant translation related content and information? If you are in a position that you must reject such posts, then the system you have created is not very welcoming and hence flawed because it is the entire goal of those forums to cater towards users posting content related to translation and the rules are not allowing that.

Edit: But I guess since I never actually directly said it. As far as I'm concerned full games do not belong in the translation section at all unless a patch is impossible. I do not see why this forum needs another game download section.
But I don't have a rigid position on any of this, I will follow the orders of the admin.
It is necessary to allow people who did not create a patch to post a release there because that is the core point of that entire "Translation Projects & Releases" forum. Not allowing this defeats the entire purpose of it because you would be telling users that have a translation patch that they are not allowed to share the translation patch in a forum dedicated to releasing them. Pushing their content into user-specific threads or the mini-releases thread is not acceptable. Users must be able to publish content as normal threads if they wish to do so because forums exist to accommodating users, not the other way around.
The same is true for people who want to be helpful to other people and bundle the patch with the game, upload it, and then share the link all in one thread along with their patch or based upon an existing patch in the same thread as where that patch was posted. Forums should not punish users who are helpful like that. Sharing such helpful content should not only be allowed, but encouraged.
Do you disagree? Why exactly? How does your position benefit users more in the long run without punishing users trying to be helpful?

Fundamentally, if you dislike the heavy handed moderation on other forums, why are you trying to re-create it here? Let the users who prefer that approach go there. I think we should let anime-sharing be unique and focus on its existing strengths of being a welcoming environment and allowing all sorts of content. That is more ideal than seeking to create rules that prohibit users from releasing translation patches in the translation release forums the way they see fit.
 
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You are completely ignoring that everything I've suggested so far would only apply to the already very strictly formatted "Normal Releases", that would have every single post manually approved anyways.
Which was first suggested by the admin. You're pretending like that was my idea.

I have at no point suggested any of this for your "Mini Release" stuff or the "Translation Discussions".
If you want those to be garbage piles, that's completely fine with me.

In general I do not particularly care. I'm pretty tired of this discussion.
Especially with the needlessly insulting nature of your responses pretending as if what I'm saying would be incredibly stupid or even trolling, even though what I'm saying is common practice across the internet.
I have moderated a forum before. It's not that deep.

I'll do whatever the admin tells me to do, because it's his forum. Not yours.
I did not come here because I wanted to be a moderator, I just wanted a place to mirror my stuff without having to worry about it suddenly getting deleted/lost with no communication like it's happening on F95.

If the administrator agrees with you, that's fine.
Again, it's his forum, I will comply with his ruling.
 
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Hey,

Let's maintain professionalism. We all need to compromise here—nothing is ever perfect, but as long as we do our best, it shouldn't matter much.

Now it's becoming increasingly complex, almost like crafting a handbook, but I'll do my best to lay everything out clearly. I hope we can reach a consensus soon as it's getting into complicated territory.


Compilation Threads:
Regarding user-created compilation threads, while feasible, I doubt users will want to invest much time into these since they typically aim for quick releases. Nonetheless, allowing multiple compilation threads per user is fine as long as users don't post duplicate content; they're responsible for organizing their compilations. We can revise this later when it becomes too bloat.

Technical Challenges:
Acknowledging "excessive technical challenges" as a valid exception for posting translated games is reasonable. For instance, if creating a separate patch is not feasible due to technical constraints, this is acceptable. We don't ask everyone to go extra mile if they don't have the ability to do it, but everything can be patched if you replace enough files. Large patches will be uploaded at a filehost/cyberlocker, unfortunately.

Addressing Contradictions:
Convenience is key for everyone wanting to play games in English, and the noted contradiction is acceptable to facilitate that. Allowing Thread Owners who created their patches to upload their games is sensible because they best understand their work and how to integrate patches. This can be seen as a special privilege for their efforts.

It's essential to relax restrictions to allow growth. As long as this doesn't turn into a place for untranslated game postings, it's generally acceptable to allow more flexibility.

Conclusions:
If the Thread Owner doesn't post the patch, the thread should be reclassified as either a Translation Discussion or moved to the Downloads and Requests category unless Exceptions exist. And as long as the thread does not constitute hijacking, users should freely post updates, links, or games with applied patches in the thread.

Hijacking
As Entai2965 has noted, there's no definitive rule for determining when a thread is being hijacked. To keep it simple: Users cannot post the exact same content as the thread owner within the owner's thread.

In cases involving improvement patches or games with patches, it is considered hijacking only if the Thread Owner objects.

However, users are always free to reference the original games or games with patches pre-applied in the Download Areas within the Owner's Thread. This is not hijacking but simply sharing information, as we do not censor information.

In situations where different patches or exclusive patches intended for patrons are leaked and posted on the Owner's Thread, it doesn't warrant a removal. Instead, it might be moved to the mini-release section to manage the situation if and only if the Thread Owner raises the issue.

The principle of sharing remains pivotal at Anime-Sharing.

For Duplicated Release Issues:


Here at ASF Download & Requests Area, each user may maintain their release thread as long as they follow the rules, even if it includes various versions of the same title. The focus is on providing users with maximum availability and choice instead of purely focusing on tidiness.

We can take a slight detour for this Translation Section

Duplicate Release Definition: A duplicate is defined as reposting the exact same patch for a game.
  • User A posts an MTL patch using SugoiV4 for Game A.
  • User B reposts the identical patch from User A—this is a duplicate.
  • Different patches or significant improvements aren't duplicates and won't be treated as such:
    • User C post MTL using GPT-4o for Game A | not duplicate
    • User D post MTL using GPT-4o but with improved prompting technique for Game A | not duplicate
    • User E download from User A, edit, fix grammar but largely remain the same patch for game A | not duplicate
    • User F download from User A, fix the patch to work for Game A version 1.1 | mod discretion applies / case-by-case basis
Relying on community feedback to flag bad patches reduces the moderation workload. If a patch is commonly flagged for not adding value, it may be merged into mini-releases or deleted.

I suspect that most translators won't take the time to post their work as a "Normal Release." Instead, the majority will likely contribute to a mega compilation thread, which should minimize any potential issues addressed above.

Handling of Edge Case Threads:
  • The first person to post a patch is considered the patch author, unless claimed otherwise.
  • If the original patch author appears later, they should create a new thread, as having multiple threads ensures diversity. Once the true author makes their own thread, it implies they're willing to support their patch on ASF.
  • At mod's discretion, mod can then merge and stick the original author thread. This functionality does not exist yet but will be added at a later date. This also motivates the true author of the patch to post first on ASF to prevent a takeover, and we will still be able to resolve such matters.
  • If a patch is leaked, it may remain available, reflecting ASF's sharing philosophy. Original Authors should understand this policy.
  • This will address "duplicate" patch and "original author" issue.
Games with Patches:
This section allows for games to exist with patches but doesn't require them. If conflicts arise (e.g., claims of hijacking), they will be handled on a case-by-case basis and decided in the best interest of the community. Users can be directed to the Downloads section while mentioning links in the Author's thread.

Note: This section is not for western original content or self-made games like those occasionally posted on itch.io. This remains beyond the Translation's current scope.

To ensure we're on the same page: The Translation Section focuses on providing patch creators/providers (inclusive of private or leaked patch) a place to upload and share their works. For those who wish to share games with patches pre-applied, the Download and Request area will continue to be the appropriate venue for that.

In summary, our goal remains to bring translation patches and contents to the forefront, making a wealth of content available while maintaining an accessible, organized forum space.

Have I missed anything?
 
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Extra Optional Settings for the Translation Section:

Would you prefer all links to be hidden and visible only to Registered Users?
Do you want attachments to be downloadable only by Registered Users?

Enforcing registration may reduce availability but encourages collaboration and discussions.
 
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Have I missed anything?
Whether or not we should check the contents of download links and attached patches for forbidden or harmful content, or just take the posters word for it.
(Things like real life porn, viruses, advertising, scams, etc.)
Would you prefer all links to be hidden and visible only to Registered Users?
Do you want attachments to be downloadable only by Registered Users?
I would prefer people to have an account to increase the chance of them actually writing a bug report if they have an issue. (Because if they already have an account the required effort is much lower.)
 
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Whether or not we should check the contents of download links and attached patches for forbidden or harmful content, or just take the posters word for it.
(Things like real life porn, viruses, advertising, scams, etc.)

No you don't need to if you don't want to, I don't think we can cover everything. We will leverage the public effort to do it.
 
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No you don't need to, we will leverage the public effort to do it.
Well, alright.
Can I add a sticky, warning users about it?
(That links and patches are not vetted in any way and users download at their own risk?)

While I would assume that is unnecessary/obvious for the people in this forum, people coming from F95 might wrongly believe that I'm enforcing the rules of the F95 game section here, because they know me from there.
(That everything in a release thread has to be manually checked by an Uploader, or Moderator, and run through at least 3 AV programs.)
 
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(That links and patches are not vetted in any way and users download at their own risk?)
Yes that's fair.

You can also personally vet it by simply telling them that you take a look. I edit my original post but I guess I didn't do it fast enough before you read it. It's best effort.

Few useful BBcode that can be used:

NOTICE: Mod approved

WARNING: Links and patches are not vetted in any way and users download at their own risk

ERROR: BETA Patch, may not stable

INFO: Only works with Version 1.2

DOWNLOAD: See attachment to download


Custom Box Blue

Custom Box red

Custom Box yellow

Custom Box green

Custom Box Gray


Translation Progress:

Editting : 50%





Title 1
Content 1
Content 2
Content 3
Content 4
 
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I do not think moderators should be in a position to decide what patch is a duplicate of another for patches released by different users, but I will accept it in the name of compromise. If we are going ahead with the disallowing duplicate patches despite the mountain of problems I pointed out, then I need at least a few more clarifications.

- If user A posts a SugoiV4 based patch for Game A, and then user B posts a Sugoiv4 based patch for Game A, are they duplicates? Assume neither user attached a changelog besides mentioning that Sugoi v4 was used in some way. Are we supposed to assuming they are or are not duplicates by default one way or the other? Specifically, are we allowed to assume they are different unless a user flags them as identical? Or are we required to assume they are the same? Shisaye and I disagree on this so we need explicit guidance.
- Do we only have to look into it when flagged or when posted? Are we expected to download the patch and check? To what extent? Can we stop at hashes, that is, can we ignore cases/reports of "duplicate" patches if we check and the hashes do not match proving they are different files?

Background: The hashes not matching means they are not binary identical files, but including a single blank space in one of the text files of the patch will alter the hash of the resulting patch making the contents, for all intensive purposes, the same but with different hashes.

Can we just stop at hashes or are you expecting us to look further? It would be very burdensome and nearly impossible to look further because then we are in a position of needing to run diffs to check exactly which file changed which requires unpacking the patch which requires learning more about the game engine and learning more about its unpacking tools which requires figuring out exactly which tools those are which then requires compiling those tools which requires figuring out the compiling instructions if they are not sufficient or not provided which may require an obscure version of Visual Studio not available anymore, and so on and so forth. That process is excessively burdensome to be expected of any moderator.
- To avoid the above scenario, can we just stop at hashes?

- Are we requiring users to attach change logs to their patches in Normal Release threads now or can we just only deal with it if a user flags something as a duplicate? I would prefer not to require this.

- For many patches, only the translation source is known or perhaps even unknown. It is not necessarily known what translation techniques were applied, MTL, AI, native speaker, MTL + Native speaker, MTL + editing so requiring this information is not realistic. That means the exact origins and type of a patch may be unknown. It is also entirely realistic for multiple different unknown patches to occur for the same game and for those patches to be different in some unknown way. If we are not allowing duplicate patches, are all of these patches allowed or is only one "unknown" patch allowed where others are assumed to be duplicates? Is only one patch from "author X" for game A allowed and all patches with the same description automatically assumed to be duplicates simply because no other information is known about them?
There are lots of problems associated with identifying origins especially of old eroge patches, and not allowing duplicates could prevent the sharing of those patches as Normal Release threads depending on how exactly the policy is applied. That would potentially discourage sharing these old patches with unclear origins, so I am requesting clarification that patches of unknown origins are allowed, even if they may or may not be duplicates because that is excessively difficult to determine reliably at the time the user posts the patch.

- If user A posts a SugoiV4 based patch for Game A, and then user B posts the same patch, as defined by a hash match, and the game with the patch integrated, then user B is required to post their content in the "Downloads & Requests" category section instead, correct? So we would have to move their thread now, but would not have had to move their thread if they had posted it first, correct?

Handling of Edge Case Threads:
  • The first person to post a patch is considered the patch author, unless claimed otherwise.
  • If the original patch author appears later, they should create a new thread, as having multiple threads ensures diversity. Once the true author makes their own thread, it implies they're willing to support their patch on ASF.
  • At mod's discretion, mod can then merge and stick the original author thread. This functionality does not exist yet but will be added at a later date. This also motivates the true author of the patch to post first on ASF to prevent a takeover, and we will still be able to resolve such matters.
What exactly do you mean here? Saying "At mod's discretion" does not work here because Shisaye and I heavily disagree on this exact point. We need clearer guidance than this.
Are you saying that if user B says they are the original creator of a patch, that they can take over the thread of user A even though user A posted it first? I am very against implementing any rule that allows a person to hijack a thread they did not create for any reason, including claims of patch or game authorship, genuine or not.

Personally, I do not think moderator assisted thread hijacking or merging should occur, ever. Moving threads and content around is one thing, but changing thread ownership is quite another and sends a very different message to users that threads they created and the links to content associated with those threads can be removed from their control, at any time, if another user takes issue with they content they posted. That is not a good message to send.

If the rule is that "the first person to post a patch is considered the patch author, unless they claimed otherwise," then we should not contradict that later by allowing thread merging or changes in thread ownership. If the original thread owner is says they are posting a patch another user created, perhaps on some other website or forum somewhere and now they are posting on A-S, then they are willing to surrender "ownership of the patch," but that logic does not apply to their "ownership of the thread." They are the ones who created their thread and that should never be taken away from them even if they did not author the patch or game.

That policy of not allowing thread ownership takeovers via thread merging or otherwise would encourage people to post first on A-S if they care about "ownership" of a patch without punishing the people who actually posted first.

The necessary consequence of this is that "patch owners," as defined by them, will not be allowed to post their patches in the Translation Projects & Releases section as Normal Threads because doing so would allow a duplicate patch and we are saying "no duplicate patches," right?

Note: This section is not for western original content or self-made games like those occasionally posted on itch.io. This remains beyond the Translation's current scope.
This is a new rule. In terms of western content, I agree, but what about eastern self-made games posted on itch.io or freem.ne.jp? I do not see any particular rason to exclude such content. I posted a request for a patch for Obake Oujo as a template for future requests. A translation patch for this title is still allowed, correct? If not, then what is the rationale for excluding eastern self-made games posted on itch.io? Even VNDB does not exclude them.

Would you prefer all links to be hidden and visible only to Registered Users?
Do you want attachments to be downloadable only by Registered Users?
I would prefer all links stay visible without needing to be signed in like they are in almost all other parts of this forum to maintain consistency between the forums and encourage new people to see value in visiting A-S.
Blocking the links and attachments prevents people from finding that value because it blocks people from accessing the content that could have been useful to them. Keeping the links open, if it is reasonable possible, makes them see the value in visiting A-S, perhaps enough to be willing to sign up later. Requiring sign ups for links chases them away. I recognize that not permitting links may be necessary to for reasons related to search engines, spam, or combating malicious hyperlinking, but it should be those sorts of overriding reasons that close links, not anything else.
For some perspective, there are additional moderation techniques, like adding a delay before posts automatically appear to give moderators time to spot problems or a formal moderation queue but with auto-approval. I am not sure if either of these approaches are available on this forum, but we should at least consider these alternative approaches before going all in on the manual approval moderator queue for all three translation forums.
Are those approaches possible? Which of the three translation forums right now have a moderation queue? How does the current moderation queue in those forums work? I asked Shisaye what they thought of this, but they never responded.
Are you really suggesting the bare minimum requires a moderation queue where a moderator has to manually approve each post? Do you think that queue should apply to releases, guides, and discussions or a subset of those three forums? Which ones?
To be clear, I would prefer no moderation queue at all. Since we are not scanning links anyway and we have a warning about it already, I do not see any value in it unless it is necessary to combat spam or malware. In that case where it is necessary to fight spam and malware, then having an auto-approve moderation queue or visibility timeout is a better approach since it is more hands off and allows moderators to only intervene if there is a problem, in contrast to an approval-required based queue. It also gives users a clearer sense that their post will be posted automatically by the system as opposed to possibly never/only if a moderator is online. This lets the moderators stay out of the way of regular users as much as possible, unlike approval-required moderation queues.
 
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Personally, I do not think moderator assisted thread hijacking or merging should occur, ever. Moving threads and content around is one thing, but changing thread ownership is quite another and sends a very different message to users that threads they created and the links to content associated with those threads can be removed from their control, at any time, if another user takes issue with they content they posted. That is not a good message to send.

If this is the case, let's proceed as follows:


  1. Translation Release Forum: This will include a nested Mini Release forum where anything goes.

  2. Main Translation Release Forum: This will enforce strict formatting. Anyone can post here as long as they adhere to the format. Any thread not complying with the format will be moved to the Mini Release forum.

  3. No Content Ownership Imposed: Threads can be moved between the Release and Mini Release forums as needed, without transferring ownership should anything go wrong but this will be rare.

This is a new rule. In terms of western content, I agree, but what about eastern self-made games posted on itch.io or freem.ne.jp? I do not see any particular rason to exclude such content. I posted a request for a patch for Obake Oujo as a template for future requests. A translation patch for this title is still allowed, correct? If not, then what is the rationale for excluding eastern self-made games posted on itch.io? Even VNDB does not exclude them.

Regarding the inclusion of content:

You might have misread my previous message. The Translation forum is intended for translated content. If an original release already includes English, it's not considered a translation, as no translation effort is involved. However, translations of Eastern self-made games or doujin content are certainly permitted.


To be clear, I would prefer no moderation queue at all

On moderation:

A moderation queue, if used, would be for the Main Release forum, not the Mini Release forum.

This separation should simplify the process.

Lastly:

  • Only Registered Members can download attachments.
  • Download links can be hidden from non-registered members at the discretion of the poster. (by using the hide function)
 
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If this is the case, let's proceed as follows:


  1. Translation Release Forum: This will include a nested Mini Release forum where anything goes.

  2. Main Translation Release Forum: This will enforce strict formatting. Anyone can post here as long as they adhere to the format. Any thread not complying with the format will be moved to the Mini Release forum.

  3. No Content Ownership Imposed: Threads can be moved between the Release and Mini Release forums as needed, without transferring ownership should anything go wrong but this will be rare.
Just to clarify since that implies to do away with the no duplicates rule again, so if someone makes an exact copy of an existing Main Translation Release thread, that should still be approved?
Even if they make the exact same thread 10 times?
 
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To simplify everything: All threads in the Translation Releases forum are allowed, as long as they follow the format and required elements. No duplication check is required.
  • A separate Patch is required, with the exception clause still in place.
  • A game with the patch pre-applied is optional.
I suggest implementing a moderation queue in the Translation Release forum. This will allow moderators to quickly assess whether the formatting meets the required standards.
 
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Potentially dumb question, but is the formatting even required at that point?

It kinda sounds like one could just dump everything in mini releases and never have a real reason to interact with the specifically formatted section to begin with.

I mean if they want their thread to be pretty they could still do that in mini releases, and index it themselves in a collection thread.
 
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Potentially dumb question, but is the formatting even required at that point?

Yes, I think it's beneficial to have at least one section that is visually pleasing and well-organized.

I mean if they want their thread to be pretty they could still do that in mini releases, and index it themselves in a collection thread.

Since the Translation Release forum will be featured on the front page, maintaining a clean format is important, unlike the Mini Release.

It might be beneficial to introduce multiple prefixes such as MTL, Partial, Completed, and Abandoned.

However, many of these can already be implied—for example, Partial implies Not Completed, Abandoned can be ambiguous, and not having MTL as a prefix might suggest otherwise.
 
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So in summary our job as moderators is basically, look at the formatting of new threads in the Main Translation Release section and if they fit, approve them, if not move them to mini releases.

And that's about it?
Or is there actually something else we should do?
 
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