This thread was indeed required. I wouldn't have imagined that translating would spark this much discussion.
But it's great. This will sure prove useful in the future, since Illusion tends to reuse the same terms in all of their games. Having them ironed out now will streamline the process for upcoming titles.
About 大雑把 :
I looked in 2 different dictionaries for what english terms they suggest and they both said rough, broad, sketchy. Maybe one of those?
This term literally translate as "rough", so it's exactly what you'll find when looking for it in a dictionary. And it would mean the same thing in England or in Japan : someone who is "rough" is basically someone who lacks proper manners and etiquette.
The issue is that Japanese people won't use this word like we would as Westerners, especially in this case. Simply because we don't have the same conception of what are "proper manners and etiquette". Cultural differences between Socratic and Confucianist societies lead to pretty big gaps on what is considered socially-acceptable behaviours.
In the West, we have a pretty high tolerance threshold, and you'll have to be pretty impolite, confrontational or violent to be labelled as a "rough girl". But in Japan, they're much less forgiving : you'll be considered as rough and "unsophisticated" as soon as you deviate a bit too much from social standards.
Do you know what
tatemae means ? This is what it's all about. And this is why "being rough" means much more that it appears, here, and isn't so straightforward to translate.
A proper lady, that is respectful of social etiquette and manners, has to show a really controlled side of herself. She has to appear exactly as society wants her to appear, whatever her true feelings and aspirations.
And we all known what are those standards and their symbols. They're the idols that are shown on TV. For a girl, it means being cute, innocent, delicate and considerate. Stray a little bit too far away from those ideals and you'll be labelled as "rough". It's as simple as that.
And more often that not, it has to do with their sexuality. Showing yourself as a frivolous person, going out instead of working hard, admitting you don't have any willingness to raise a family when you're past 25 or expressing a little bit too much of an interest in sexual pleasure is social suicide for a Japanese girl. It would be a big fucking breach of proper social etiquette. A terrible disruption of the
wa.
Well, around here, you could very well think of that as a "Tomboy"; a girl who has a very masculine attitude and personality. These gyaru/yankee girls seem very, very close to what we consider Tomboys in personality; except, they dress a bit girlier/flashier, I suppose. Tomboys usually dress in a more masculine fashion. (Jeans, t-shirts, etc.) If you think she's actually supposed to be a gyaru/yankee girl, maybe it's just best to name her that?
It's not even about being tomboyish. As I mentioned just above, it's mainly about lacking a proper "tatemae", about being unable to control your public stance and image. Those girls can be really feminine and dress all girly, but they still will appear as pretty uncouth by Japanese standards. Simply because they don't act like we expect a girl to behave.
This is why I first translated this term as "easygoing". As most foreigners, I don't really care about the subtleties of the Proper Japanese Way of Doing Things (even if I appreciate them) and I don't really mind girls being overly familiar. I won't think of them as "rough" simply because they don't address me with
keigo and don't act either as a innocent cutie or a sophisticated mistress like society told them to do.
Especially since this lack of etiquette is (as told) a sign of familiarity : you don't have to maintain such formal stance with your close friends. With friends, you show your true self, not a social mask. So, to me, a girl that doesn't build a wall appears outgoing and friendly, while for a (more conservative) Japanese guy, she would appear pretty vulgar : she would simply be way too assertive for his standards.
This is the reason why any girl that is a little bit too open and extrovert is automatically seen as being slutty. If a girl can't conform to social norm while this norm is all about girls being cute and innocent, then it means that this girl is a bitch. There's simply no alternative.
It's so ingrained in their culture that even the guys from Illusion (a bunch of eroge-otaku) don't deviate from this stance : they made their "rough" girl pretty debauched. In the game, she's the girl that has the most perverted lines, and when you check the mechanics, you'll notice that the girls that have this personality are far from being tame :
- They earn "sexual experience" way faster than any other type. They even outclass "diligent" girls.
- They start with more "desire points" (red) than any other type and earn 3 extra ones per H-Session. They're the best personality to reach max "horny" status.
- They will give higher priority to any red position (the lewd ones) when evaluating your performance and higher priority to the "desire" stat when calculating state.
So, now, you have a pretty good grasp at the meaning behind "大雑把". Simply translating it as "rough" wouldn't do it justice. I was looking for something that properly convey the whole "outgoing girl that is far from Japanese standards on femininity and is a bit sluttish" idea.
But I'm probably over-complicating things. In the end, "easygoing" may be the best translation possible.
Since they're not Japanese, most player won't probably grasp the slight indelicacy and the vulgar undertones of this girl personality. And, if I'm not mistaken, "easygoing" already denotes a personality that can be a bit carefree and
skanky at times.
About 無口 :
Just thought I'd add my 2 cents on some of the changes made to the personalities and mentalities. My only concern with the personality changes is Quiet->Withdrawn. There's usually been a Quiet personality, so the change seems rather odd, unless Withdrawn just makes more sense?
I didn't participate in previous game translations, so I don't know what was used in the past, but I can tell that here, the proper translation is indeed "withdrawn". In fact, most dictionaries won't translate this term as "quiet" but as "reticent" or "taciturn".
I wouldn't say that "quiet" is incorrect, but the issue is that it doesn't convey the intent behind this "quietness". You may be quiet because you're comfortable and confident. Calm and peaceful. Or you may stay quiet because you're too shy. Because you're so socially inept that you're too afraid to open your mouth. Or aloof. Or because you hate everybody and don't want to talk to anyone. The term "quiet" doesn't give much of an idea about the personality of someone who keeps silent.
無口 [no-mouth] IS Quiet to me. Not necessarily withdrawn, just not of many words.
I'd like to hear the rationale for 無口=withdrawn too.
The rationale is pretty simple : "withdrawn" is better at conveying the shy and introverted nature of this personality.
This is a girl that obviously lack self-confidence. When she talks to you, all red and all naked while looking at her feet, and throws a line like "Don't stare too much", or when she thanks you after sex, it doesn't feel like she's being simply "quiet". She's shy and have issues expressing her feelings. The fact that she talks like a kid and apologises a lot reinforce this awkwardness.
Furthermore, if they wanted to create a "quiet" personality that is cool and aloof, I'm sure they would rather have used a word like "静か" (shizuka). They wouldn't have used "無口" and wouldn't have made a girl that is so submissive (by the way, this is the personality that has the best characteristics to make the perfect slave).
About 心情 :
Pleased doesn't strike me as a mentality, but more of a mood. I liked Fun more, personally. Maybe Fun-Loving as an alternate, or even Happy? Erotic seemed fine, compared to Charmed, but that's one where I'm not quite sure of the real meaning of the translation, so I can't make up my mind about that one. I think Fascinated struck me as the most odd of the changes. That used to be "Wants you", right? If someone truly wants someone else, I'd think better options would be Enamored, Attracted, or even Charmed. Funny that a few of these basically mean the same thing in certain ways, right? Jeez, this is tricky stuff, lol.
Well, here, take care : those aren't "moods" but "sentiments". They represent the starting feelings the girls have towards the player.
For example, a "Pleased" girl starts with 20 "Favour Points" (the yellow points, that corresponds to the yellow face, and represents how much she loves you). An "Affectionate" one starts with 55. A "Lovestruck" girl starts with 80 points.
That's why I used a terms like "Pleased" instead of "Fun", or "Charmed" instead of "Erotic" : because we want to convey how the girl feels about the male character, or how she acts toward him.
So, in the end, it was all about having some kind of an intensity scale about a certain sentiment, rather than having translations that are as close as the originals as possible.
And to me, "Interested" feels weaker than "Charmed" and "Charmed" feels weaker than "Fascinated". But since we're talking about sexual desire here, a scale like "Interested" > "Attracted" > "Charmed" may be better.
