KanColle Headquarter!

[Menemy]

Good joke, how many non-Yamato BBs can hit 184atk on even 2gun1apen shell?

Exactly, even Fusou kai can hit soft cap and deal the same damage as yamato during the day

 

[ecael]

Exactly, even Fusou kai can hit soft cap and deal the same damage as yamato during the day

Have you actually looked at the numbers? Fusous are at a mere 99 base atk, even if we ignore fit and go double 46 they still have a mere 151 atk. Good for 50% of the time. Even if we ignore everything else, replacing Yamatos with Fusous already means that you are expected to need to sortie twice as much.

 

[Menemy]

Have you actually looked at the numbers? Fusous are at a mere 99 base atk, even if we ignore fit and go double 46 they still have a mere 151 atk. Good for 50% of the time. Even if we ignore everything else, replacing Yamatos with Fusous already means that you are expected to need to sortie twice as much.

mere 151 atk? 150 is the soft cap for day battle, that means you won't deal more damage if you go over it (still does more damage in yasen)
The only reason to use Yamatos or Nagatos are their armor and HP, it has nothing to do with damage and that annoys me greatly.

 

[ecael]

mere 151 atk? 150 is the soft cap for day battle, that means you won't deal more damage if you go over it (still does more damage in yasen)
The only reason to use Yamatos or Nagatos are their armor and HP, it has nothing to do with damage and that annoys me greatly.

Day cap is affected by orientation, so the real caps are at 121, 146, 184 and 247 depending on orientation if we count the +5 for daytime shelling (for non-CVs), that's ignoring formation and health effects. If you want to talk about the math, at least make sure to actually look at the formulas first.

 

[KingArturia]

Day cap is affected by orientation, so the real caps are at 121, 146, 184 and 247 depending on orientation if we count the +5 for daytime shelling (for non-CVs), that's ignoring formation and health effects. If you want to talk about the math, at least make sure to actually look at the formulas first.

Could you explain this part a bit more, since it intrigue me because I don't know much about cap other than I've been told about "Its soft capped at 150" but I seems to notice overall Yamato class still tend to out perform any BB in game even when ships reaches its soft cap (since both my Natago and Mutsu are 16x because of the 51cm I gave them, as like "cheaper" version of Yamato before I bust out the Yamato class), yet I still noticed that Nagato seems to most of the time get outperformed by a Yamato class even if they're both soft capped in day (I always notice Musashi score much higher crits and tends to do well against higher armor target than Nagato does. Also my Nagato is 93 when my Musashi is only 76)

 

[ecael]

Could you explain this part a bit more, since it intrigue me because I don't know much about cap other than I've been told about "Its soft capped at 150" but I seems to notice overall Yamato class still tend to out perform any BB in game even when ships reaches its soft cap (since both my Natago and Mutsu are 16x because of the 51cm I gave them, as like "cheaper" version of Yamato before I bust out the Yamato class), yet I still noticed that Nagato seems to most of the time get outperformed by a Yamato class even if they're both soft capped in day (I always notice Musashi score much higher crits and tends to do well against higher armor target than Nagato does)

The precap component are % modifiers that is multiplied against the attack value directly, that total value is softcapped past 150. Given parallel engagement (100% atk mod) and line ahead formation (100% atk mod) and above shouha (100% atk mod), then yes. 146atk is enough to bring a non-cv into cap. But at heads on engagement (80%), after rounding, you'd need 184atk to break cap ((151/0.8)-5).

tl;dr softcap's 150 is not the same as 150 raw attack on your stats. 184 is the very least that you can aim to secure cap against all rng (if you have saiun), and if formations we use becomes more varied then that value only goes higher. If you take damage along the way, then raw atk you need goes even higher.

You can make decent arguments about BBs being bad, but the existence of softcap is anything but an issue for BBs.

 

[Menemy]

Day cap is affected by orientation, so the real caps are at 121, 146, 184 and 247 depending on orientation if we count the +5 for daytime shelling (for non-CVs), that's ignoring formation and health effects. If you want to talk about the math, at least make sure to actually look at the formulas first.

I could be wrong but orientation still applies to the 150cap. It's not that the caps changes but the damage does. I would check the english wiki but that's not exactly reliable info either

 

[ecael]

I could be wrong but orientation still applies to the 150cap. It's not that the caps changes but the damage does. I would check the english wiki but that's exactly reliable info either

150 is the value to hit after formation, orientation and hp modifiers are applied to base atk power+5 (for not-CVs). The cap itself doesn't change, but the requisite raw atk necessary to hit it does. English wiki's information on the matter is the same as JP's in this regard.

 

[FireShark]

I'm lost halfway but.. Is it something like higher FP stat allows one to do better regardless of any crossing-T?

Doing extra overkill damage is only crucial when dealing against bosses in hoping to stop their attacks/closing torps. Otherwise, I can't find a reason why one would like to deal almost 200 dmg against a DD.

 

[ecael]

I'm lost halfway but.. Is it something like higher FP stat allows one to do better regardless of any crossing-T?

Doing extra overkill damage is only crucial when dealing against bosses in hoping to stop their attacks/closing torps. Otherwise, I can't find a reason why one would like to deal almost 200 dmg against a DD.

That understanding is not exactly mistaken, to explain it without doing any math at all...you know how Kaga will randomly kill anything that it hits even in T disadvantage situations? That's because her raw atk is something in like 230s iirc. You know how Dyson can still hit like a truck during chuuha? That's because her atk is at like 250s. Do you want your ships to perform similarly? Well then, gotta stack them atk above a mere 150.

As for doing it against the DD, that's why supports and preempt air/torp exists.

 

[Menemy]

That understanding is not exactly mistaken, to explain it without doing any math at all...you know how Kaga will randomly kill anything that it hits even in T disadvantage situations? That's because her raw atk is something in like 230s iirc. You know how Dyson can still hit like a truck during chuuha? That's because her atk is at like 250s. Do you want your ships to perform similarly? Well then, gotta stack them atk above a mere 150.

As for doing it against the DD, that's why supports and preempt air/torp exists.

I think you are confusing things, Kaga uses torpedo stats not the firepower one

 

[FireShark]

[MENTION=99902]Menemy[/MENTION]; Wait what.. but CVs have 0 base torp stats? Actually I don't even know how Torp planes damage are calculated. :P I just assume dive planes gets their attack from dive power + ship FP while torp planes from it's torp stat. This is getting complicated. I'll just take a step back.

 

[ecael]

I think you are confusing things, Kaga uses torpedo stats not the firepower one

And cv attack formula is done with (atk+torp)1.5 + (divebomb)2 + 55, yes, I know. I said atk for the sake of simplicity. Either way, the calculated value should break cap even in T disadvantage scenarios considering that the raw firepower alone on Kaga is like 190. If you want to nitpick, at least bring up something constructive.

[MENTION=99902]Menemy[/MENTION]; Wait what.. but CVs have 0 base torp stats? Actually I don't even know how Torp planes damage are calculated. :P I just assume dive planes gets their attack from dive power + ship FP while torp planes from it's torp stat. This is getting complicated. I'll just take a step back.

See above, it is pretty simple. There was a reason I specified the cap values for firepower to be not-cv. If people want cv related numbers there are enough that came up from the support equipment talk earlier anyway. This was just a pointless detour that came from a nitpick that didn't even address anything.

 

[Menemy]

Well you should always take everything i say with a grain of salt, i am a casual player after all. Nevertheless if you don't quote actual formulas (which are not exactly official either but educated speculations) every opinion is valid and focused more on starting a constructive debate

 

[ecael]

Well you should always take everything i say with a grain of salt, i am a casual player after all. Nevertheless if you don't quote actual formulas (which are not exactly official either but educated speculations) every opinion is valid and focused more on starting a constructive debate

If you want to hold that opinion then just don't bring up numbers at all please. There is no point in having a so called 'constructive debate' if you don't think the basis of the said argument is true. If you want to bring up numbers, however, either look up what is currently held to be true or have some significant sample to show what you believe is more likely to be correct.

Also, there are no real middleground here. The fact that high atk enemies will punch through T disadvantage or chuuha damage reduction can't be disputed, nor is the fact that your ships are much less likely to achieve the same feat. Exact numbers aside, these circumstances obviously have an impact on the performance of your ships. From there, you can decide for yourself whether your Fusous or Yamatos are more likely to perform in case of chuuha.

 

[Menemy]

If you want to hold that opinion then just don't bring up numbers at all please. There is no point in having a so called 'constructive debate' if you don't think the basis of the said argument is true. If you want to bring up numbers, however, either look up what is currently held to be true or have some significant sample to show what you believe is more likely to be correct.

Also, there are no real middleground here. The fact that high atk enemies will punch through T disadvantage or chuuha damage reduction can't be disputed, nor is the fact that your ships are much less likely to achieve the same feat. Exact numbers aside, these circumstances obviously have an impact on the performance of your ships. From there, you can decide for yourself whether your Fusous or Yamatos are more likely to perform in case of chuuha.

I think you might be a little angry right now and i'm not exactly sure why. Going on Fusous vs Yamato, it's your pick. Do you want to burn resources? Use Yamato, no matter what you say they will do roughly the same amount of damage to high armored targets without AP so the only thing they got going for them is their elephant armor.

 

[ecael]

I think you might be a little angry right now and i'm not exactly sure why. Going on Fusous vs Yamato, it's your pick. Do you want to burn resources? Use Yamato, no matter what you say they will do roughly the same amount of damage to high armored targets without AP so the only thing they got going for them is their elephant armor.

And we are back at the start because you don't want to read or don't think anything that I said is true.

Yes. HP and Armor are legit reasons to run Yamatos over Fusous. No, the damage output from the two aren't the same.

 

[KingArturia]

I think you might be a little angry right now and i'm not exactly sure why. Going on Fusous vs Yamato, it's your pick. Do you want to burn resources? Use Yamato, no matter what you say they will do roughly the same amount of damage to high armored targets without AP so the only thing they got going for them is their elephant armor.

I cannot say that Fuso and Yamato both perform equally as each other. Yes, if both is full health/minor damage, they might end up doing roughly the same damage, however if both end up getting medium damage/heavy damage, Yamato probably immediately out perform the Fuso because Fuso will most likely fall below cap whereas Yamato still have a chance to stay within cap (because of just much higher raw stats to compensate for the damaged health modifier).

If you really want to say Fuso have equivalent performance then that's just a weird, because from what I can remember, E5 Truk Hard Mode, there isn't a composition I can see that uses two Fuso instead of two Yamato if they have two Yamato (heck Fuso doesn't even come in because Nagato straight up replace anyone who doesn't have Yamato, Fuso only comes in if that person have no Nagato or Yamato), its simply because Yamato just straight up out perform Fuso if it comes to map that you have to take a lot of hits before reaching boss and in a case where boss have 2 Battleships Hime as escort, good luck trying to clear that with two Fuso.

 

[Menemy]

I cannot say that Fuso and Yamato both perform equally as each other. Yes, if both is full health/minor damage, they might end up doing roughly the same damage, however if both end up getting medium damage/heavy damage, Yamato probably immediately out perform the Fuso because Fuso will most likely fall below cap whereas Yamato still have a chance to stay within cap (because of just much higher raw stats to compensate for the damaged health modifier).

If you really want to say Fuso have equivalent performance then that's just a weird, because from what I can remember, E5 Truk Hard Mode, there isn't a composition I can see that uses two Fuso instead of two Yamato if they have two Yamato (heck Fuso doesn't even come in because Nagato straight up replace anyone who doesn't have Yamato, Fuso only comes in if that person have no Nagato or Yamato), its simply because Yamato just straight up out perform Fuso if it comes to map that you have to take a lot of hits before reaching boss and in a case where boss have 2 Battleships Hime as escort, good luck trying to clear that with two Fuso.

I said Fusou originally just for the sake of using a forgotten BB, i could have said Ise. (There is no reason to pick Fusou over Kongous..)
Yes i am talking about full hp ships, never expect damaged ships to deal damage (not even Yamatos) they will most likely do scratch level damage or miss. When talking about damage the Nagato does the same damage and can use the same guns (Even 51s) but you use Yamato over them because they can take better hits and in some cases that doesn't even matter because not even Yamato can take some hits without getting oneshotted (CV hime for example)

Dear lord i'm just repeating everything i said over and over but against high armor targets you can't really depends on BBs that's why you turn to CLTs in yasen (or CVs in daytime). If it's not an armored target it doesn't even matter what BB you use since they will make it explode without sweating

 

[ecael]

I said Fusou originally just for the sake of using a forgotten BB, i could have said Ise. (There is no reason to pick Fusou over Kongous..)
Yes i am talking about full hp ships, never expect damaged ships to deal damage (not even Yamatos) they will most likely do scratch level damage or miss. When talking about damage the Nagato does the same damage and can use the same guns (Even 51s) but you use Yamato over them because they can take better hits and in some cases that doesn't even matter because not even Yamato can take some hits without getting oneshotted (CV hime for example)

Dear lord i'm just repeating everything i said over and over but against high armor targets you can't really depends on BBs that's why you turn to CLTs in yasen (or CVs in daytime). If it's not an armored target it doesn't even matter what BB you use since they will make it explode without sweating

And you are wrong at every turn. Chuuha Yamatos do damage. Nagato do a comparable level of damage as Fusous. Thanks for ignoring orientation too. Incidentally coming from someone who has farmed Kaga in some way for every event since MI, not even Yamatos tank her effectively, but we still run Yamatos precisely because of chuuha Yamatos capable of dealin damage. You are wrong about armored targets too and you are contradicting yourself unless you are purposely ignoring the different yasen softcap. Also CLTs don't automatically blow up Dysons either, if they did no one would complain about Truk hard mode.

See what I mean by this not being constructive? You don't have anything to back up what you say and keep on repeating the same (wrong) information. If you want to hold onto the belief, that's fine, but if you want to convince others of it then have some actual data to back up what you are saying.

 

[KingArturia]

I said Fusou originally just for the sake of using a forgotten BB, i could have said Ise. (There is no reason to pick Fusou over Kongous..)
Yes i am talking about full hp ships, never expect damaged ships to deal damage (not even Yamatos) they will most likely do scratch level damage or miss. When talking about damage the Nagato does the same damage and can use the same guns (Even 51s) but you use Yamato over them because they can take better hits and in some cases that doesn't even matter because not even Yamato can take some hits without getting oneshotted (CV hime for example)

Well Ise when remodeled to her respective BBV loses so much FP that I'm not sure whether there is any point of even sortieing out them anymore until they get their Kai Ni. As for your ships not doing damage at medium damage, well you either get RNG or something but my Musashi consistently be able to do very similar damage whether she's full hp or orange damage, as long as my Musashi isn't red she's ready to go. And Nagato doing same damage as Yamato, hm I'm not sure about that either. Example would be my E6 Hard Final rotation of the just recently finished event. I was not able to finish the final rotation no matter what I do to Nagato/Mutsu. I tried to sparkle and everything but result in no luck, the moment I switch Musashi out it went for a straight up clean kill with my fleet receiving minimal damage. You can probably say I just got RNG'd but having sortied over 20 times on the Nagato/Mutsu set up I can't say I just have bad luck (but maybe I do xD).

 

[Menemy]

I'm not going to continue with this since it has been going for a few pages and it has been increasingly more hostile, I flat out don't agree with you. There is a difference in constructive debates and plain ranting between 2 guys, we never actually had a debate from the first place.

From my experience at (not so high) 97 HQ level
FP cap does nerf BBs, otherwise people would still stack 46cms on Kongous (Accuracy penalty aside)
BBs deal roughly the same damage if all battle conditions (including orientation, ammo, hp, equipment) are the same, and will delete unarmored targets.
CLTs will always deal more damage than BBs to bosses (unless it's an installation type)
BBs do indeed deal insane amount of damage during yasen.
The only practical reason to use Yamato over other BBs is their armor and hp stats due to their high fuel/ammo usage( or if you are planning to ring one of them like my Musashi)
RNG is the ultimate reason on you failing your sorties or not, going from damage, accuracy, dodging.

That's basically all i have to say in this matter, take it or leave it.

 

[ecael]

Of course there was no debate, there was no common ground for argument in the first place. At least all those statements are wrong so it is easy to just point to a post and say that anything mentioned there is not the case.

 

[Menemy]

Of course there was no debate, there was no common ground for argument in the first place. At least all those statements are wrong so it is easy to just point to a post and say that anything mentioned there is not the case.

Funny you say my info is wrong when you only back your claims with rhetoric questions, I'd say your info has the same validity as mine.

 

[ecael]

Funny you say my info is wrong when you only back your claims with rhetoric questions, I'd say your info has the same validity as mine.

I mean, do you want to browse through 2013~2014 threads on the matter? I can link you to plenty if you can read Japanese, the topic has pretty much been completely settled for the past year or so. There are also countless nico vids on the matter from methods that range from simple data collection to packet inspection for information. If you want to bring it up for things like LSC recipes or acc then I might agree that there aren't enough materials out there to say with certainty, but basic damage formula like what's being argued over here have implications that you can easily observe as a player.